[Collie]

Speaking of a NA tenor (maybe there might be a generalization also for the altos) and what family it does represent. Does it have more characteristics of a True Tone IV or more of the later Aristocrat?
The necks seem to be different (NA/TT) but what about the tube?
An Ari tube with split bell keys of the TT, or maybe just a TT with slightly different keywork?
And how would you describe the sonic differences?

Very curious about the answers!

THANK YOU

 

[maddenma]

Need to ask Saintsday. He's the only one I know that owns one.

I always had the impression it was a TT with updated keywork.

 

[paulwl]

I may be nuts - I own 2 New Crat tenors - but I always felt there were some subtle changes to the acoustics on these horns that made them just that few per cent easier speaking and more in tune than the series IV True-Tone.

I have one of those, too - in fact one of the very last. The IV is #2640xx, the brass NC #2652xx, the silver NC #2661xx. It's my impression that the series IV is just that little bit more resistant, perhaps a bit more gravelly in tone, up and down the range - with just a slight bit more tendency to go sharp up in the 2nd octave vent range. The same holds true of my T-T altos vs. their New Crat successors.

In all 3 tenors, tho, there's still that "bottleneck" around G1 where there's a tendency to go flat and it's tough to lip up. Maybe that buffaloed 'em and they said, "let's wait for the total redesign." That took care of it.

How much of these (admittedly very subtle!) changes might have been due to the neck design and how much to other factors, I couldn't say. There were no numbered tenor necks, however, as there were with altos.

 

[jicaino]

They're TT main bodies with updated neck and keywork.

 

[maddenma]

Which could explain the subtle differences that Paul was referring to.

 

[jicaino]

Paul is your neck opening ("port") larger than .500?

 

[Collie]

Re : Re: New Aristocrat....questions for the knowing

Thanks very much for your impressions.
So it is very disappointing to see that a "new Crat" actually isn't really more than a slightly updated TT. So why did it deserve the new created name "Aristocrat"? Seems to be a kind of marketing those days.
FWIW my neck "port" is about 1,2 cm, so slightly less than 0.5 inch.

 

[JL]

Re: Re : Re: New Aristocrat....questions for the knowing

Thanks very much for your impressions.
So it is very disappointing to see that a "new Crat" actually isn't really more than a slightly updated TT. So why did it deserve the new created name "Aristocrat"? Seems to be a kind of marketing those days.
FWIW my neck "port" is about 1,2 cm, so slightly less than 0.5 inch.

I wouldn't find that a 'disappointment.' I was actually a bit disappointed to find that a series one Aristocrat alto didn't have as good a tone as my True Tone. So, if it's true that the NA maintains the same tone quality as a TT, yet with slightly updated keywork and neck, that sounds like the perfect alto to me!

I have yet to find an alto with a better tone quality than the Buescher TT, and the later TT (248,xxx) I have plays well in tune also. From all I've heard the NA altos are among the most-sought after of the Buescher altos.

 

[jicaino]

NA's are best in the alto flavor and A-I's are best in tenor and baritone flavor :mrgreen:

 

[Collie]

Re : Re: New Aristocrat....questions for the knowing

NA's are best in the alto flavor and A-I's are best in tenor and baritone flavor :mrgreen:

so I did everything wrong.... A-I alto and NA tenor ... damn :faceinpalm: :mrgreen:

 

[JL]

Re: Re : Re: New Aristocrat....questions for the knowing

so I did everything wrong.... A-I alto and NA tenor ... damn :faceinpalm: :mrgreen:

Sorry I thought you were talking about the altos for some reason. Still the Aristo altos are great horns. I haven't played a TT or NA tenor, so don't know how they compare to the later models. I have a series one Aristocrat tenor and a 156. Both great, but the series one is really special.

 

[jicaino]

Re: Re : Re: New Aristocrat....questions for the knowing

so I did everything wrong.... A-I alto and NA tenor ... damn :faceinpalm: :mrgreen:

there's no "wrong" with Bueschers (or any other makes, except for keilwerths :twisted: ) it's just personal preference. I like my old true tone alto better than anything else I've tried. And I just LOVE the early 127 model aristocrat tenors (both art decos and big b's have this model, then the 156 is a different design)

 

[SephirothTNH]

Hey Juan how does the big b series work on alto? Are some of them 135s and later ones 140s like the tenors or are they all 140s regardless of model stamp?

 

[jicaino]

Hmmm good question. Most of alto variances are just necks and some bows. The main bodies remained unchanged since TT III series around 180XXX or so (when they adopt the last octave vent placement near the E3 upper post)

I like the series III true tones (my favorite is a 228k) and TH&C altos. I'd also say that around 240k up to 260k or so (late IV True tones and New Aristocrats) there's a huge batch of horns that sounds... "stuffier" than previous and posterior horns. Like way too classical music oriented. Not all of them but most of them I've tried are too resistent and "dark".

I really don't like the New Aristocrats... but as stated, that's a matter of personal preference.

 

[Jorns Bergenson]

Re: Re : Re: New Aristocrat....questions for the knowing

there's no "wrong" with Bueschers ... it's just personal preference. I like my old true tone alto better than anything else I've tried. And I just LOVE the early 127 model aristocrat tenors (both art decos and big b's have this model, then the 156 is a different design)

Couldn't agree more. Personally, I like my NA tenor and TT stencils (E.K. Blessing, Carl Fischer both made in the early 1930's) better than other Buescher tenors, but then I've been playing these horns for the last 30-something years. The NA model feels like "being home".

 

[maddenma]

Re: Re : Re: New Aristocrat....questions for the knowing

so I did everything wrong.... A-I alto and NA tenor ... damn :faceinpalm: :mrgreen:

That's sort of feeling like you were damned by failing to pick the the difference between Thin Mints or the York Peppermint Patty.

Presumably the 135 is a different horn than the 140. However, for tenors there were so many multiple variations on the 127 that Juan likes so much that it's hard to actually call those the same design.

For me, I prefer the 156 Big B tenor (gasp) and have a "Series I" 140 alto that I prefer the tone and response of over the later Big B 140's -- which actually feel quite different playing.

Still, like I said, well into the late 50's, and occasionally into the early 60's you can't go wrong with any of them.

 

[saintsday]

Re: Re : Re: New Aristocrat....questions for the knowing

I wouldn't find that a 'disappointment.' I was actually a bit disappointed to find that a series one Aristocrat alto didn't have as good a tone as my True Tone. So, if it's true that the NA maintains the same tone quality as a TT, yet with slightly updated keywork and neck, that sounds like the perfect alto to me!

I have yet to find an alto with a better tone quality than the Buescher TT, and the later TT (248,xxx) I have plays well in tune also. From all I've heard the NA altos are among the most-sought after of the Buescher altos.

That's pretty much the way that I see it. Last winter I took 3 or 4 NAs to Fredonia along with my favorite True Tone and got a chance to hear Wildy Zumwalt play through the whole batch. Of course he sounded great on all of them, but if I had to pick based purely on tone, I'd still pick my TT with two of the NAs very, very close behind.

 

[paulwl]

Paul is your neck opening ("port") larger than .500?

The series IV neck is 33/64" inside...so yes, but only just!

The New Crats aren't with me to measure right now.