[musiciscool]

Has anyone seen this occur with other 82zs? Would this fall under the warranty? The B & Bb pads are equally over hanging the tone whole as if the bell was mounted wrong. Also, the contact point for the C#arm is similarly 'off'. It all works, and sounds great, which is why I didn't notice it when I bought it, but on future repads large sized resonators may not fit because of the off centered pads that can't be easy dealt with. Is it a major process to shift the bell? (It's a silver-plated tenor)

 

[milandro]

you mean that the bell is slightly tilted one one side? Most modern saxophones are but that doesn't mean that the bell is mounted wrong. Can you publish pictures? Yamaha quality control is one of the best and most perfect in the business. I have some serious doubts that any saxophone could leave the production plant with anything less than optimal set up. IF there is any wrong mounting. How do you know that this hasn't happened at the shop where you bought the horn?

 

[griff136]

Has anyone seen this occur with other 82zs?)

Not from the factory.

Would this fall under the warranty?

possibly and it should have been spotted and put right when it was set up by the shop you purchased it from - if indeed it was set up.

The B & Bb pads are equally over hanging the tone whole as if the bell was mounted wrong. Also, the contact point for the C#arm is similarly 'off'. It all works, and sounds great, which is why I didn't notice it when I bought it, but on future repads large sized resonators may not fit because of the off centered pads that can't be easy dealt with. Is it a major process to shift the bell? (It's a silver-plated tenor

If it all works and sounds great then my advice would be to leave it alone.
It will not be a problem realigning the bell and you could get it done now if it bothers you. Any decent tech could do this job in under an hour. You would need to replace the following pads once the bell and the associated keys have been realigned:

Bb, B, C, Eb

 

[milandro]

I am still not sure that the bell is truly out of its intended position, could it be that the OP is simply seeing something normal to be not normal?

 

[William Bua]

Take it to a trusted tech and have him solder the joint, not epoxy it and as Griff stated, replace all pads D3 and below.

 

[simso]

It all works, and sounds great, which is why I didn't notice it when I bought it, but on future repads large sized resonators may not fit because of the off centered pads that can't be easy dealt with. Is it a major process to shift the bell? (It's a silver-plated tenor)

Doesnt sound like an issue. Sounds like the standard lean milandro is talking about in the bell that exists on most saxophones, however key alignment (tone hole central to pad) is not always the best on most saxes. If it plays great as you say, then leave it alone, 10 years from now if you still own it and want a repad get the bell put to a location you like.

 

[musiciscool]

Thank you so much for your responses. Here are some pics, the off centered pads only occur on the bell pads, every other pad is how it should be. The C# lever's contact point with the B key is affected as well, it is not centered either, but is barely contacted by a corner of the cork, right now it works though.
So, do I understand right, that if needed, it wouldn't be a big deal for a tech to 'fix' this, or would you recommend dealing with it while under warranty? Would soldering affect the finish? Thanks again for your help!

 

[simso]

It wont be covered by warranty. As the sax is sealing, Ideally yes the bell would be better positioned slighlty further turned, but this is in no way is affecting the way its playing as you have noted.
In the perfect world every keycup would be centred over every tone hole, every pad would have no impression marks on it etc etc, but its not a perfect world, its a world bound by profits and commercialism.
Its a good looking sax and the 82's play fantastic IMO, just play it and ignore the rest.

To repair that to a cosmetically acceptable standard for yourself is not a small job, becuase its not the whole bell section eb and around, which is simply a loosen the bracket and turn the bell, but its the actual bell which would require desoldering turning and resoldering, then new pads

 

[jbtsax]

First of all the off center bell keys are a non-issue. As long as there is good coverage of the tone hole at the back and sides of the pad it is perfectly functional. An "oversize resonator" in this last part of the tube will have no perceptible effect upon the tone regardless.

If you are a perfectionist and absolutely have to have the bell keys centered, it is a simple matter for a qualified tech to put more "S curve" in the key arms by bending them to solve the over reach problem. This usually requires replacing the pads since the pad seats will have changed. The contact surface for the B to C# closing adjustment can be easily solved by key bending as well. I would advise that you have this done in the interest of the key doing its job. I would also suggest leaving the bell keys as they are since they are working properly with the factory alignment.

 

[Gordon (NZ)]

I agree with Simso & MIlandro.

If you paid at least twice the price, as people do for flutes and oboes, then you may expect closer to perfection.
(If the resonators were smaller you probably would not have even noticed.)

In this particular case, I doubt that key bending alone would correct the misalignment.

 

[hgiles]

Nice Z!

 

[jbtsax]

Judging from the photos in the OP's post, it appears that the key cup would need be withdrawn only 3 - 4 mm in order to center the pad over the tone hole front to back.

Pictured below is my Yamaha Custom 875 showing the shape of the bell key arms which should be similar to the 82Z. I have done this adjustment many times reducing the over reach of sax keys. It is often a much more difficult challenge when the key arm extension is too short.

In any event, I would strongly recommend against turning the bell section as a remedy to the problem as described. The problem can be easily solved by putting more bend in the keys, and rotating the bell section would necessitate bending the key cup in order to seat the pads to the new angle of the tone hole.

 

[CE Winds]

I'm sorry, I just have a hard time understanding why this is 'acceptable' on a Yamaha. To me, it's unacceptable (as it would be 'publicly' if it was CE Winds, or any other 'non' major brand).

Unless he bought it with the understanding that "that's just the way it is, it was a manufacturers defect so here is a discount", but for it to be 'found out' after the purchase is disturbing, and even more so that people think it's "no issue".

We work with manufacturers, and understand when hand assembling saxes things can happen, but to make it all the way to a 'store' without a mention to the customer, it makes me shake my head and wonder.

Maybe I'm making a big deal out of it because we've been 'flogged' for much less than this, but it is what it is I suppose. I personally like Yamaha, and for the price tag, would want near perfection.

If it was me, I would pursue something with the store you bought it from, or through Yamaha itself, and see what happens.

 

[spike421]

I'm sorry, I just have a hard time understanding why this is 'acceptable' on a Yamaha. To me, it's unacceptable (as it would be 'publicly' if it was CE Winds, or any other 'non' major brand).

Unless he bought it with the understanding that "that's just the way it is, it was a manufacturers defect so here is a discount", but for it to be 'found out' after the purchase is disturbing, and even more so that people think it's "no issue".

We work with manufacturers, and understand when hand assembling saxes things can happen, but to make it all the way to a 'store' without a mention to the customer, it makes me shake my head and wonder.

Maybe I'm making a big deal out of it because we've been 'flogged' for much less than this, but it is what it is I suppose. I personally like Yamaha, and for the price tag, would want near perfection.

If it was me, I would pursue something with the store you bought it from, or through Yamaha itself, and see what happens.

I agree. when you shell out the big bucks for a top of the line horn, it's perfectly reasonable to expect as near perfection as possible.

 

[jbtsax]

A few additional observations that I believe apply in this instance.

-The bell keys work perfectly in that configuration.

-Changing the juxtaposition of the key cup and the tonehole will make no difference in the sound, nor will it change the mechanical operation of the key.

-The only problem with there not being a perfectly concentric pad seat circle around the resonator is in the minds of the viewers.

-This is really a non-issue regardless of the name engraved on the bell.

-Perfection only becomes important when the imperfection is relevant to the cosmetics of the saxophone and/or how it plays.

-If the purchaser of the saxophone is really bothered by this "non-problem" it can easily be corrected in under 30 minutes by bending key arms and replacing pads.

-There are enough "real problems" that exist with new saxophones that deserve our attention such as brittle springs that break when adjusted, wavy toneholes, too little shellac in key cups, poorly fit pivot screws, noisy keys, cork that compresses used in areas of regulation, etc. that we shouldn't waste our time chasing "imaginary" ones IMO.

 

[Mikkeos]

If the door on your sparkling new Mercedes Benz is as badly aligned, but closes perfectly fine, it still would be a case for the warranty.

 

[simso]

Sorry to upset you guys but its not covered by warranty becuase it is functioning fine, also I'll disclose I am a warranty rep for yamaha here in Australia.

There is nothing wrong with the instrument, if you went and bought the most expensive saxophone out there and looked it over, I guarantee you, you will find key cups that are not ""perfectly"" aligned with the tone hole.

The car analogy is really not good again, if your going to use that, why not say the wheels fit inside the wheel arches, but the suspension doesnt place the wheel in the exact centre of the arch.

 

[Graftonsax]

I don't think functioning fine is the only requirement for a warranty issue. I can take a saw to the bell of a horn and it will function fine. I would hope if the shop who sold this is a Yamaha dealer and if the customer wanted it adjusted/corrected that they would simply just do the adjustment. A real issue or not. I see the C# arm being off a far larger problem, its hard to tell in the pictures with it being silver and all, but it looks like its a miracle that it closes at all. I would be suspect of shipping damage from the factory because I can't believe that passed a quality check.

 

[Phil1]

Has anyone seen this occur with other 82zs? Would this fall under the warranty? The B & Bb pads are equally over hanging the tone whole as if the bell was mounted wrong. Also, the contact point for the C#arm is similarly 'off'. It all works, and sounds great, which is why I didn't notice it when I bought it, but on future repads large sized resonators may not fit because of the off centered pads that can't be easy dealt with. Is it a major process to shift the bell? (It's a silver-plated tenor)

Hey there Musiciscool. I'm trying to understand the issue here. I can't tell what some are seeing from the photos.

If you are saying the bell pads and the bell don't line up perfectly then there may be a simple solution.

A good repair man can solve that by actually rotating the bell without disassembling the horn. It only takes maybe 10 seconds to do it and then everything will line up perfectly.

You may not want to watch but I've seen it done. The bell can shift out of line especially if it's been shipped.

So don't do anything radical like soldering the seam or even bending the pad cups until you take it to a competent repairman.

And yes this can happen on new horns or any horn due to impact while the horn is in the case.

As I said before I've seen it done and was shown how to do it but I would never try it because you have to know how to hold it just right and actually rotate the bell.

If the horn is playing fine I wouldn't mess with it. However I understand how you feel about a new top of the line horn.

Now if you're talking about another issue then I really don't know.

 

[milandro]

Well as others have commented the horn seals right so, probably there is not a guarantee claim there but I see where the OP is coming from and I too would look to the possibility of correcting this. It would bother me to know that. I know it would.

At the moment there is not a real issue but the " problem" can be dealt with by a tech who would follow the most appropriate strategy. I am not able to comment to which one would be the best because I don't feel qualified to do so in the presence of so many illustrious technician who can better advise you than I could possibly do.

I would have this correction done as a part of an overhaul and modification of the horn. So mounting other pads with oversized resonators would be a part of it. I would still go back to the shop and ask some questions. Perhaps they feel responsible enough to offer you some support. I think that they should even though, strictly speaking, you might not be entitled to any corrective intervention from the part of the dealer or Yamaha.