Negativity in music
1 - 20 of 107 Posts
I remain hopelessly naïve after 60 years of being a working sax player and never before having entertained the notion of 'negativity' in music. Having thought about it for about 12 seconds, I have concluded that it is counter-productive and should be ignored.
Joined
·
7,147 Posts
If you talk to musicians in other countries than the USA, they often do not share our quest for maximum improvement and perfection. Perfection is an ideal for them, not a commitment.
IMO, they have that luxury because the arts are typically more indulged in their societies. In the arts scene in American society, there is room only for the best and those who show consistently that they want to be the best. Not everyone has something worth contributing or hearing.
IMO, they have that luxury because the arts are typically more indulged in their societies. In the arts scene in American society, there is room only for the best and those who show consistently that they want to be the best. Not everyone has something worth contributing or hearing.
Joined
·
926 Posts
This could be a interesting discussion if looked at in the context of psychological profiles. On one hand you have personalities who are "driven" by seeking perfection where whatever they have achieved is not good enough. These are sometimes call "Faustian" types. Then there are passive players who may have talent but don't strive or seek more than limited exposure or self entertainment. It probably takes a fairly robust ego to want to stand in front of people and (attempt to) entertain them. Without that ego and drive would they ever achieve a decent level of playing? Do some people sit back and enjoy the satisfaction of having achieved a level that satisfies them?
My guess is that there are a few people who have worked hard at becoming fine players AND enjoyed the process while achieving a level of playing that has satisfied them. It's likely that there are more who may have talent, egos and drive who have fleeting moments of satisfaction, then push on to try and achieve the next level, and may not be happy/satisfied the majority of the time. Unfortunately the largest group would be those without talent who divide in to two groups: 1. the strivers who are never satisfied simply because they don't have talent/creativity so have set themselves an impossible task, and 2. the recreational players who may practice and strive but are realistic in not trying to become more than an amateur.
Within these "types" you can have people who are negative or positive. Unfortunately it seems to me that the majority are indeed negative due to excessive ego or unrealistic expectations. Unrealistic expectations seems (to me) to be a biggie that has come about with formulaic teaching that carries the inherent motto "anybody can play music"... which to some extent is true, but not everybody is talented or will become famous. Formulaic teaching that resembles teaching academic subjects doesn't deliver the same result of a piece of paper that = a job. Being able to jump through the hoops of "grades" or a university degree does not = talent or creativity, just hard work, and patience for little/no professional reward. No reason for those in the teaching industry to burst anyone's bubble as it's lucrative for them not to.
It comes back down to us to know ourselves and not jump on a treadmill without considering the consequences. You are responsible for your own happiness...or lack of same.
My guess is that there are a few people who have worked hard at becoming fine players AND enjoyed the process while achieving a level of playing that has satisfied them. It's likely that there are more who may have talent, egos and drive who have fleeting moments of satisfaction, then push on to try and achieve the next level, and may not be happy/satisfied the majority of the time. Unfortunately the largest group would be those without talent who divide in to two groups: 1. the strivers who are never satisfied simply because they don't have talent/creativity so have set themselves an impossible task, and 2. the recreational players who may practice and strive but are realistic in not trying to become more than an amateur.
Within these "types" you can have people who are negative or positive. Unfortunately it seems to me that the majority are indeed negative due to excessive ego or unrealistic expectations. Unrealistic expectations seems (to me) to be a biggie that has come about with formulaic teaching that carries the inherent motto "anybody can play music"... which to some extent is true, but not everybody is talented or will become famous. Formulaic teaching that resembles teaching academic subjects doesn't deliver the same result of a piece of paper that = a job. Being able to jump through the hoops of "grades" or a university degree does not = talent or creativity, just hard work, and patience for little/no professional reward. No reason for those in the teaching industry to burst anyone's bubble as it's lucrative for them not to.
It comes back down to us to know ourselves and not jump on a treadmill without considering the consequences. You are responsible for your own happiness...or lack of same.
What a nonsensical statement
Joined
·
1,435 Posts
Having passion for the music is what matters. There is no way to really gauge talent because it's all about how you are perceived by others. If you love what you do then that's what counts. I face a lot of negativity in the form of my own doubts and fears about my playing, but the love for it makes me keep coming back, and each time I try to improve upon my understanding of the music. Ego can be destructive or it can be helpful when it's guided by our higher self. I was thinking about what people consider valuable in music and I believe the most important thing is originality. If you aren't doing something fresh and unique then it's not really adding anything to what's already been done. Fortunately everyone is unique and it's just about finding our own voice.
Joined
·
421 Posts
You are being very cryptic. What kind of negativity you mean? I am really having hard time distilling what kind of negativity one must embrace to accomplish what goals? I agree that negativity can be a perfectly valid driving force, sometimes, not everything needs to be about happiness or whatever.
But, music is not a competition, and there's no perfection. What kind of perfection are you seeking? Let's take jazz as example. Perfecting that language, and driving it forward is all good and respectable activity, but it's nothing to be too serious about. It's far from being a universal language, a rather obscure dialect of one, at most.
Music is also an abstract language. If you try to use music to "say something", I think it's poor choice of medium. You just can't compare it to words or pictures. That's the beauty of it.
Driving music forward, and being unique, is funny thing. It's a respectable goal to say the least. But if you take old music, then new music built on that same tradition, that has been "driven forward", and compare them. Is one better than the other? Is the new music more... wise? I wouldn't say so. Is the new music more valuable to humanity, than music that is just based on emotion and enjoyment (perhaps "naive")? Not so sure about that either. Intelligence does not equal wisdom. The beauty is somewhere in the social context, or in the process.
If you try to build a castle of music, make sure to include windows in the floorplan. The dirt and rot out in the world tell so many stories, you don't wanna miss out on that. (this refers to something you wrote in in another thread)
Sorry if this came out as hostile. It's not intentional although I must admit being a little triggered by OP's attitude I perceive as elitist. I'm honestly curious, if you could elaborate on your thoughts. Burning passion to perfection is always something to be respected, even when we might disagree on the goals or methods. I am lucky to have a day job where I regularly encounter the weirdest specialists, niche hobbyists and personalities. It is often baffling how people can be wonderfully passionate about obscure or even seemingly mundane things. I often don't agree with their world views or whatever it is they are fueled by, but always take great joy and fascination from the existence of their passion whatever that may be. All that serves in the fight against apathy and ignorance.
But, music is not a competition, and there's no perfection. What kind of perfection are you seeking? Let's take jazz as example. Perfecting that language, and driving it forward is all good and respectable activity, but it's nothing to be too serious about. It's far from being a universal language, a rather obscure dialect of one, at most.
Music is also an abstract language. If you try to use music to "say something", I think it's poor choice of medium. You just can't compare it to words or pictures. That's the beauty of it.
Driving music forward, and being unique, is funny thing. It's a respectable goal to say the least. But if you take old music, then new music built on that same tradition, that has been "driven forward", and compare them. Is one better than the other? Is the new music more... wise? I wouldn't say so. Is the new music more valuable to humanity, than music that is just based on emotion and enjoyment (perhaps "naive")? Not so sure about that either. Intelligence does not equal wisdom. The beauty is somewhere in the social context, or in the process.
If you try to build a castle of music, make sure to include windows in the floorplan. The dirt and rot out in the world tell so many stories, you don't wanna miss out on that. (this refers to something you wrote in in another thread)
Sorry if this came out as hostile. It's not intentional although I must admit being a little triggered by OP's attitude I perceive as elitist. I'm honestly curious, if you could elaborate on your thoughts. Burning passion to perfection is always something to be respected, even when we might disagree on the goals or methods. I am lucky to have a day job where I regularly encounter the weirdest specialists, niche hobbyists and personalities. It is often baffling how people can be wonderfully passionate about obscure or even seemingly mundane things. I often don't agree with their world views or whatever it is they are fueled by, but always take great joy and fascination from the existence of their passion whatever that may be. All that serves in the fight against apathy and ignorance.
Joined
·
120 Posts
In the end, it’s your personal relationship to music that matters. The greatest music is produced when a musician approaches music with love, respect, and humility.
Joined
·
1,833 Posts
Don't be so negative.
Joined
·
2,011 Posts
The problem with music and art in general is that the thing you seemingly love and can give you great pleasure is the same thing that can cause great pain and personal suffering. You seem to be wallowing in the latter.
There are those who will play the simplest tune with sloppy technique and be as happy as can be.
Is that a positive or negative?
There are those who will play the simplest tune with sloppy technique and be as happy as can be.
Is that a positive or negative?
It's not really clear to me what you're trying to say.
We all know that sometimes we need to be kicked in our musical tails, and that's part of development. Maybe that's what you mean by "necessary negativity in music".
But I'm not sure what you mean "the arts scene in American society". Which arts scene do you mean? If you're talking about the top 30 jazz musicians in New York City, that's one thing, but if you're talking about the vast majority of American musicians, in the lower ranges of professional music and the world of amateur and semi-pro music, I don't think the statement "there is room only for the best" is accurate at all.
Right up till COVID shut everything down, I was regularly playing music in five or six different groups (some would be called formal bands, others more "scratch" or "jam" groups), and these groups incorporated people of a wide range of skills and experience. I don't think any of us could be called "the best" and I think few of us could be classed as "showing consistently that they want to be the best". But most of us DID have "something worth contributing or hearing". Just because Ron's cornet playing isn't of Bix or Warren Vache's standard, and his singing isn't to a professional standard, doesn't mean that he, and I, and the other musicians playing with us, and our audience, can't get great enjoyment out of his playing and singing. How can you say that he doesn't have something worth contributing or hearing? He's not going to innovate a new form of music, OK, but that doesn't diminish the worth of what he IS doing.
Joined
·
3,088 Posts
There are too many questions regarding this disjointed and non-sensical statement...... One big questions is...... what in the world you are talking about?
Joined
·
350 Posts
News flash! - life is hard. What a concept...
Joined
·
6,173 Posts
I positive I have no negativity about my music.
Sure I strive to learn new things, and I've been doing it for many decades, but I've always been happy about where I am. Making music is a thrill, and I've been gigging since I was in Junior High School. Perhaps because I started gigging so young and got lots of approval, I never had stage fright. Winning first chair in the all-state band every year, and being section leader (taking the crown from the first alto) also boosted my self-confidence.
I'm sure there are a lot of better players than me, and many of them frequent this forum. That never bothered me any, it's not a competition.
I also thing a positive attitude brings better results when learning new things even during those difficult things to learn. Knowing you are going to get it down helps you get there.
Insights and incites by Notes
Sure I strive to learn new things, and I've been doing it for many decades, but I've always been happy about where I am. Making music is a thrill, and I've been gigging since I was in Junior High School. Perhaps because I started gigging so young and got lots of approval, I never had stage fright. Winning first chair in the all-state band every year, and being section leader (taking the crown from the first alto) also boosted my self-confidence.
I'm sure there are a lot of better players than me, and many of them frequent this forum. That never bothered me any, it's not a competition.
I also thing a positive attitude brings better results when learning new things even during those difficult things to learn. Knowing you are going to get it down helps you get there.
Insights and incites by Notes
Joined
·
20,616 Posts
Only problem there is ....
....everyday we are reminded, whether by flicking on the radio, going on YT, listening to 'net based music platforms, listenting to canned music in stores, having the damn gas pump flick on a video while we pump (this is why I only get $5 of gas at a time)....and even going out and seeing live music, locally.....that the idea of "in American society there is only room for the best".....
...is complete malarkey.
Is now, always has been. Always will be....malarkey.
If you think that the American Music Scene is some sort of shining example of "only the best will succeed"...yipes...whatever you are smokin'...I don't want any...
(Mind you I am writing with perhaps 1/4 of my tongue in cheek...but....one can make quite the strong argument that the music situation here - it is the quintessential opposite, no ?)
Ironically, my own reply here is a negativity in and of itself.....and one which should be acknowledged and dealt with - within ourselves....so it doesn't eat away at us as musicians....
No...that is an incredibly pessimistic way of looking at things.
"embrace negativity to get it done".
Again, I am not on board with that at all. We need not adopt destructive beahviours/thoughts in order to 'succeed'.
Can we 'process' negativity ? Yes. Acknowledge it ? Yes. Be conscious of it ? Yup.
But 'embrace it' ? No, I say no...you will create a modus operandi which will keep you in a very bad place if you do that - better to turn it into something else which is affirming, inspiring, creative.
Joined
·
20,616 Posts
I am not certain exactly what we are talking about here though.
Negatvity in Music...can take so many forms.
Do we mean:
"I am NOT happy with my playing..why do I sound so BAD ?"
Or, the doozy Notes touches on above:
"I don't wanna be HERE in my development (where I AM) ! I wanna be THERE, where THAT guy is !"
Or, another doozy (which interestingly didn't exist pre-internet age) :
"I can't find my SOUND, Maaaaaaan ! How can I FIND my SOUND !? I can HEAR it, like, in my HEAD, Maaaan, but...."
(Talk about a fabricated problem which has literally spawned an industry.....)
Or is it: "Dammit, it bugs the sh#t outta me ...I/my band am/is SO much better than some of the jokers who get regular gigs around town...." etc.
Or...."we worked really hard on preparing for this gig, and people pretty much could not have given a hoot about our performance... or probably whether were were even there, or not...."
Negativity .....regularly even rears its head in what should be ENJOYABLE, AFFIRMING, CONNECTING contexts such as.....
....ohhhh, say....the local Jazz Jam session....which can sometimes (oftentimes, depending on where you may live)...turn into 'in your face' shred sessions....
So, a LOT of negativity that we confront and struggle with, being a musician...artist....etc...
What are we talking about, here, though ???
Negatvity in Music...can take so many forms.
Do we mean:
"I am NOT happy with my playing..why do I sound so BAD ?"
Or, the doozy Notes touches on above:
"I don't wanna be HERE in my development (where I AM) ! I wanna be THERE, where THAT guy is !"
Or, another doozy (which interestingly didn't exist pre-internet age) :
"I can't find my SOUND, Maaaaaaan ! How can I FIND my SOUND !? I can HEAR it, like, in my HEAD, Maaaan, but...."
(Talk about a fabricated problem which has literally spawned an industry.....)
Or is it: "Dammit, it bugs the sh#t outta me ...I/my band am/is SO much better than some of the jokers who get regular gigs around town...." etc.
Or...."we worked really hard on preparing for this gig, and people pretty much could not have given a hoot about our performance... or probably whether were were even there, or not...."
Negativity .....regularly even rears its head in what should be ENJOYABLE, AFFIRMING, CONNECTING contexts such as.....
....ohhhh, say....the local Jazz Jam session....which can sometimes (oftentimes, depending on where you may live)...turn into 'in your face' shred sessions....
So, a LOT of negativity that we confront and struggle with, being a musician...artist....etc...
What are we talking about, here, though ???
Joined
·
20,616 Posts
YES ! THAT is the spirit. Music, and art, is such a special 'gift'..whether one naturally has it, or whether they go out and get it for themselves.
Such a positivity...
1 - 20 of 107 Posts
