So I joined jazz band this year since one of my directors kept asking me to join since last year. I love it. Even though I'm not in jazz 1 (I'm in the middle of the three), I just can't stop playing. We do a lot of improv and I'm not the best in that area, but I really want to excel with improv. I always like adding my own parts to music when in wind ensemble or just playing whatever comes to mind but sometimes I can't get it to flow. We're playing Sack O' Woe and instead of having an alto solo my directors told me to have at it (I play bari). This is my problem...I tried to play the written solo but I just couldn't do it. It didn't feel right so to speak. So a few measures in I just started to play off the top of my head. There were parts that were go and no so good. So what can I do get better at improv? I really didn't think it was something you can practice. I'm guessing it just comes with the more I do it, the better it comes? Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Need help with Improv
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You've made a couple of wrong assumptions, namely, 1.) thinking it was something you just don't practice, and 2.) guessing it just gets better, the more you do it.
I'll take the second first - it doesn't necessarily get better the more you do it, if you are doing it aimlessly. You need to have enough knowledge of what you are doing so that you can reflect on it each time you do it and make it better the next time. Otherwise you'll just be repeating the same old stuff. FWIW, experienced players can have the same dilemma, just on a different level.
Now to the first assumption. There are players who have great ears and who can pick up all kinds of things naturally. If you are already totally absorbed in jazz and have great ears and natural talent, the following does not apply to you.
If you are a mere mortal like many of us you might need the following advice:
Improvisation is an art and you need the tools.
- an internalised feel for the rhythms
- a sense of the history of the music
- a role model, in person or by proxy (e.g. a person who has the musical characteristics you most want to reflect in your playing).
To do this you need to:
- listen voraciously to the music so that the sounds, rhythms and style become second nature
- transcribe solos so that you can see/hear how the musicians actually articulate an idea, colour the tones, construct ideas
- get one of the standard "how to" books that take you step by step through the process, hopefully with play-along recordings
My advice, if this is all new to you, and not to be overwhelmed with information, is to get Jerry Coker's "How to Practice Jazz". It's a small, concise book that is to the point and perfect for novices. It puts what I just wrote in an organised and easy to understand way.
I would supplement that with Coker's "Improvising Jazz" which then, is a primer on what tools are needed for improvising. Again, it is laid out in a logical manner. I just recommend these books because it saves you and us going over the same ground for a protracted period and also, you then have them for reference whenever you need them.
Many would probably suggest your going with what has become known as the scale/chord method, which is basically, a progressively easy to more advanced way of learning to handle what scales go with what chord and this is usually associated with the Jamey Aebersold Play-along series. Namely:
Volume !. "How to Play Jazz and Improvise".
After you are comfortable with that, next could come vol. 2. "Nothin but Blues" a relatively easy and fun play-along.
Then I think most choose vol 54 "Maiden Voyage" or vol. 5 "Time to Play Music"
That should give you an overview to think about while others are preparing their pet answers to your question. :bluewink:
I'll take the second first - it doesn't necessarily get better the more you do it, if you are doing it aimlessly. You need to have enough knowledge of what you are doing so that you can reflect on it each time you do it and make it better the next time. Otherwise you'll just be repeating the same old stuff. FWIW, experienced players can have the same dilemma, just on a different level.
Now to the first assumption. There are players who have great ears and who can pick up all kinds of things naturally. If you are already totally absorbed in jazz and have great ears and natural talent, the following does not apply to you.
If you are a mere mortal like many of us you might need the following advice:
Improvisation is an art and you need the tools.
- an internalised feel for the rhythms
- a sense of the history of the music
- a role model, in person or by proxy (e.g. a person who has the musical characteristics you most want to reflect in your playing).
To do this you need to:
- listen voraciously to the music so that the sounds, rhythms and style become second nature
- transcribe solos so that you can see/hear how the musicians actually articulate an idea, colour the tones, construct ideas
- get one of the standard "how to" books that take you step by step through the process, hopefully with play-along recordings
My advice, if this is all new to you, and not to be overwhelmed with information, is to get Jerry Coker's "How to Practice Jazz". It's a small, concise book that is to the point and perfect for novices. It puts what I just wrote in an organised and easy to understand way.
I would supplement that with Coker's "Improvising Jazz" which then, is a primer on what tools are needed for improvising. Again, it is laid out in a logical manner. I just recommend these books because it saves you and us going over the same ground for a protracted period and also, you then have them for reference whenever you need them.
Many would probably suggest your going with what has become known as the scale/chord method, which is basically, a progressively easy to more advanced way of learning to handle what scales go with what chord and this is usually associated with the Jamey Aebersold Play-along series. Namely:
Volume !. "How to Play Jazz and Improvise".
After you are comfortable with that, next could come vol. 2. "Nothin but Blues" a relatively easy and fun play-along.
Then I think most choose vol 54 "Maiden Voyage" or vol. 5 "Time to Play Music"
That should give you an overview to think about while others are preparing their pet answers to your question. :bluewink:
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That's an excellent post, gary. The Coker books are a great recommendation too.
Good luck, OP. Do a lot of listening to (particularly) jazz and blues music (as gary already mentioned, in fact). Knowledge of the idiom is important. If you don't actually get a massive kick out of listening to great jazz players I would question whether it's possible to become a decent improviser. There's so much you can learn from listening and analysing as well.
Good luck, OP. Do a lot of listening to (particularly) jazz and blues music (as gary already mentioned, in fact). Knowledge of the idiom is important. If you don't actually get a massive kick out of listening to great jazz players I would question whether it's possible to become a decent improviser. There's so much you can learn from listening and analysing as well.
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I'm aware this can be fun, but the composer has already chosen your role in the melodic and harmonic structure of his/her piece of music. I advise against this practice.
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Thanks, saxmusicguy, I forgot that. I almost gagged when I read that.
If he were doing that with me on the podium, I would HIGHLY advise he take your advise against this practice.
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Ha ha!
Oh no I don't do while we're actually playing. I meant when I'm practicing at home or something like that but I understand where you're coming from.
Thank you for the info! I always thought someone who can just flow with the music has natural talent to do so but that's not always the case I see! I'm gonna look into these books and see how those go. I've been listening to a lot of Ronnie Cuber and Pepper Adams lately. I'm just loving it. Hearing them and many others makes me wanna go out and play my heart out.
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Someone who thinks that they are flowing with the music could be spewing out garbage to some others.
Most improvisation that most people seem to like is about feel and putting things and ideas at certain places.
The right thing at the right time, just like a song melody.
Usually players collect things as they go, you can even get ideas from things like TV themes and Ads and songs and other players of any instrument etc etc and then your technique has to be able to execute it and it's up to the player as to how it all gets put together.
Just say I had written a song and I want a sax solo in it and I try 10 different sax players for the solo, well each sax player would blow a different solo because they are making the solo and the differences in how people play come out.
There are certain players that are just good at producing solos where things seem to fit in and then there are others that sound ho-hum no matter how much they study or whatever.
If someone has got a bent for improvisation, it will usually be there from the start when they are young.
As they progress they will fine tune it but it's there beforehand.
Just studying and working hard does not guarantee that a player can put something in the right place at the right time because it's mainly a feel thing.
Studying and working hard are required but they are just a means to an end.
Horses for Courses and all that.
Most improvisation that most people seem to like is about feel and putting things and ideas at certain places.
The right thing at the right time, just like a song melody.
Usually players collect things as they go, you can even get ideas from things like TV themes and Ads and songs and other players of any instrument etc etc and then your technique has to be able to execute it and it's up to the player as to how it all gets put together.
Just say I had written a song and I want a sax solo in it and I try 10 different sax players for the solo, well each sax player would blow a different solo because they are making the solo and the differences in how people play come out.
There are certain players that are just good at producing solos where things seem to fit in and then there are others that sound ho-hum no matter how much they study or whatever.
If someone has got a bent for improvisation, it will usually be there from the start when they are young.
As they progress they will fine tune it but it's there beforehand.
Just studying and working hard does not guarantee that a player can put something in the right place at the right time because it's mainly a feel thing.
Studying and working hard are required but they are just a means to an end.
Horses for Courses and all that.
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I'd also work on developing your ear. Try playing back simple songs like Mary Had a Little Lamb and America the Beautiful. Investing some time in developing your ear is going to allow you access the music that's truly inside you and bypass, as much as possible, that phase of, as Jamey Aebersold calls it, "letting your fingers do the walking." The goal, in my opinion is to create truly spontaneous and inspired solos.
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I seem to remember Wayne Shorter saying that he saw improvising as real time composition. Where as the usual idea of composition allows for the composer to go back over their piece to tweak it here and there, improvising a solo uses the same skills of harmonic structure etc, but with no ability to back and correct "mistakes".
A little like giving a tralk about a subject from the heart as opposed to reading from a pre-prepared and reworked script on the same subject. You have to know your subject really well and also have the oratory tools available to deliver.
So, work on composition, studying why other's compositions work/fail to your ear and treat recorded solos that you want to learn in the same manner; not just learning the notes, but trying to work out why the solo works/fails.
A little like giving a tralk about a subject from the heart as opposed to reading from a pre-prepared and reworked script on the same subject. You have to know your subject really well and also have the oratory tools available to deliver.
So, work on composition, studying why other's compositions work/fail to your ear and treat recorded solos that you want to learn in the same manner; not just learning the notes, but trying to work out why the solo works/fails.
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But with a Jazz solo there is often quite a bit of sub standard on the fly composition filler unless the solo is an absolute knockout and the great players could do knockout solos but not always.
The songs that are classics contain hardly any filler.
They have been honed down and people can actually whistle them.
It's not easy to whistle a solo that's full of unmemorable filler.
So I would say that if someone can get through a solo being satisfied with the amount of filler they used, then it's probably a good solo and every soloing musician uses filler.
The songs that are classics contain hardly any filler.
They have been honed down and people can actually whistle them.
It's not easy to whistle a solo that's full of unmemorable filler.
So I would say that if someone can get through a solo being satisfied with the amount of filler they used, then it's probably a good solo and every soloing musician uses filler.
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All great comments here. Gary probably said it all, but I'll add my pet answer to your question, bdansax. 
In order to play an improvised solo you need to know and understand the song form. Sack O' Woe is a 12 bar blues. So it will help a lot if you learn the standard chord changes for a 12 bar blues, as well as the blues scale (minor pentatonic with a b5). The head of this tune uses a mix of the blues scale and the changes, so you could get some ideas there as well. I think it's always a good idea to really know the melody of the tune and go from there on your solo.
In order to play an improvised solo you need to know and understand the song form. Sack O' Woe is a 12 bar blues. So it will help a lot if you learn the standard chord changes for a 12 bar blues, as well as the blues scale (minor pentatonic with a b5). The head of this tune uses a mix of the blues scale and the changes, so you could get some ideas there as well. I think it's always a good idea to really know the melody of the tune and go from there on your solo.
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Excellent advice for any one starting to improvise--I am in that group. Oddly, the one thing that helped me quite a bit in keeping my place in the form was to think in terms of two bars phrases, or think across two bars. That, plus listening to the changes more often that I thought was possible--much less necessary!
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That is good advice too. I would add to that that it's important to rest as well as play. Rest about as much as you play in fact.
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