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I'm making an UN-educated guess because of the beveled tone holes, the design of the G# touch, and the way the info is stamped on the back . . . a stencil made by Martin (?). DAVE
 

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I'm with Dave, I think it is a Martin. I pulled out my 1923 Martin C-mel and compared details: the bases of the posts are the same oval shape, the bases of the key guards are the same triangular shape, the touches on the palm keys have exactly the same shape. Most of the arms on the keys have the exact same shape and geometry (the A and G keys are identical, the arm from low D that closes E is identical, the arm over the low E key is identical, etc.). The bevel on the toneholes is the same. Most of the posts are located in exactly the same spots.

There are a few differences: the low C key guard, the low C and Eb are on the same rod on the stencil but they are on separate rods on my Martin, the octave mechanism is different, the Martin has the thick half-moon bow guard, the G# touch is different.

IMO, the detailed design features grossly outweigh the differences. I say Martin.
 

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Actually not all bevelled toneholes are Martin, this may very well be a Couturier
Yup. Beveled tone holes plus the somewhat non-symmetrical Mercedes low C guard make that the best bet.
 

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Actually not all bevelled toneholes are Martin, this may very well be a Couturier
Yup. Beveled tone holes plus the somewhat non-symmetrical Mercedes low C guard make that the best bet.
Apparently, neither of you read my post.

90% of the OP's horn is identical to my two Martin C-mels in minute detail. It is completely different than my Couturier. The OP's horn is either a Martin or was made mostly from parts manufactured by Martin.
 

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I'm with Grumps and Milandro. Based on the serial number, the style of the tone holes, the G sharp key, and the Mercedes key guard, I'd be very surprised if that's not a Couturier. Additionally, "American Professional" was a brand used by Lyon & Healy and the link between Lyon & Healy and Couturier is well established. Conversely, I am not aware of Martin having made any stencils for L&H.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Hi everyone, thanks for all of your help, I appreciate it, my friend today brought me the case for it which she found yesterday, and it does appear to be like what Saxophender said, there is a label on the case that says "Lyon & Healy Chicago". I read about Couturier horns just now in another older post, is it safe to say that this is an originally martin design horn, or am I mistaken? Thanks. Sequoyah
 

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Ok, looks like I'm outnumbered. I'll have to do some more investigation for my own benefit. The Couturier models that I have look nothing like to OP's horn -- totally different key design, different neck, etc.

There are other threads on the "American Professional". Others, including Bruce Bailey have also attributed them to Martin. Interesting.
 

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Hi everyone, thanks for all of your help, I appreciate it, my friend today brought me the case for it which she found yesterday, and it does appear to be like what Saxophender said, there is a label on the case that says "Lyon & Healy Chicago". I read about Couturier horns just now in another older post, is it safe to say that this is an originally martin design horn, or am I mistaken? Thanks. Sequoyah
It is not an originally Martin design, it's a Couturier design. It looks similar to a Martin, but so do some older Bueschers. There may have been some copying going on, of course.
 

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There are other threads on the "American Professional". Others, including Bruce Bailey have also attributed them to Martin. Interesting.
I think there is a simple reason for that. When most people see beveled tone holes they automatically assume "Martin." The earlier L&H American Professionals were Buescher stencils which had beveled tone holes (I have a couple from 1917 and 1918), and L&H then switched to Couturier as their source, which also had beveled tone holes. Most folks are unaware of Couturier, or that early Bueschers had beveled tone holes, so when they see beveled tone holes they think it has to be a Martin.
If you see an L&H American Professional the most likely maker is actually Buescher. Couturier-made ones like the OP's are less common.
 

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I remember Bueschers and others with soldered tone holes but only Couturier and Martin for the beveled thick tone holes.
 

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I dunno on the Buscher statement, I've had ~50 units here over the years for refurbishment and I have 6 in stock right now dating back as far as 1911.....I've NEVER seen beveled anything on any Buescher or Buescher stencil. I've never run across an L&H. That neck looks similar to a Conn NW I, but I've never seen beveled anything on any Conn model, again, I've had close to 50 Conn NW I and NW II's here over the years and never seen that before.
All Beveled/soldered tone holes lead back to Martin for me with the exception of the L&H....a model that I am not familiar with. That being said, who knows what Pan Pacific did back in the day, and who ordered what out of that factory over the years. There are a ton of Pan Pacific stencils made under tons of obscure names.

With all the being said, the picture that saxophender links us to throws out everything I just stated.....so.... the mystery continues on....
 

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Well, I own two, so I know they exist. One is a 1918 Lyon & Healy American Professional, the other a 1917 Wurlitzer American. Just keep an eye out - I'm sure you'll see one sooner or later.
BTW, I believe you mean Pan American, not Pan Pacific.
 

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When I attempt to ascertain who manufactured a given stencil, I need to look at the details:
  • the shape and placement of posts including the shape of the post feet
  • the length of each section of the key barrels
  • the shape and length key arms
  • the shape of the pearl holders
  • the point where the pearl holders are soldered to the key arms (Martin has a unique shape)
  • the shape of the lh pinky key touches and the shape where they attach to the key barrel
  • the knuckles on the keys arms
  • the shape of the palm key arms
  • the shape of the spoons on the palm keys
  • the shape of the pillars under the palm keys
  • the bell brace
  • the bell and bow rings
  • the tenon ring details
  • the key guards including the feet (on Martin they are diamond shaped, many others have oval or square feet)
  • the bevel on the tone holes and the way the tone holes are soldered to the horn
  • etc.

The point that I have been trying to make is that most all of the bits and pieces look identical to those on my 1923 Martin C-mel and my 1928 Wurlitzer C-mel which is a Martin stencil. I took the time to take some pictures to show why I'm convinced that the horn was made by Martin tooling or someone copied Martin's tooling.

Everyone is free to their own opinion but all I would ask is that before saying "Mercedes key guard + flat G# bar = Couturier", please compare all of the details that I listed above. Blow the pictures up and go over them carefully. There's a whole lot more that's identical with Martin horns than there are differences.

For me, there are several possibilities/questions: Was this horn made in the Martin factory? Were the bits and bobbles made by Martin and assembled at an L&H factory (did L&H manufacture any woodwinds)? Did L&H buy tooling from Martin to manufacture horns? Did L&H copy Martin's design to the detail that the pictures show? ....

View attachment 242426

View attachment 242428

The next picture is striking to me. The right hand stack keys are the same: the length of each section of the key barrels, the post placement, etc. My Martin doesn't have the G# trill key because the keys came from a donor horn where the key arm was broken and missing.

View attachment 242430


The low Eb and C keys are simplified (on the same rod) like on many Martin stencils. The keys on the AmPro horn look identical to those on my Wurlitzer Martin stencil.

View attachment 242434

View attachment 242432
 
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