[mjs10]

Someone is selling this horn, please give me your opinion as I dont know anything about king 20. Whats the fair value you guys reckon:

 

[mjs10]

more pics

 

[Yellowhorn]

It looks like a great horn, despite scrached and worn parts on the lacquer here and there.

With a silverneck and being Cleveland-made, I would recommend a price around $2000-2200?

That is just my guesstimate. Let's hear from other King players.

 

[mjs10]

does it have original lacq? The seller is not sure

 

[warp x]

That looks like a fine horn.
Did you get to play it?

 

[mjs10]

Nah, I am from Australia, the horn is in the US. We have agreed on the terms, waiting for the owner to get the price of postage cost to Australia.

The engraving looks original to me although he is not sure =)

 

[shmuelyosef]

This is a late cleveland (single socket, spatula design). The bow has taken a big hit at some point perhaps, as the lacquer wear is very localized. If repaired well, it's probably fine, but it's a warning sign. Here's a relac that needs a pad job and is already bid up to >$2300.

 

[mjs10]

This is a late cleveland (single socket, spatula design). The bow has taken a big hit at some point perhaps, as the lacquer wear is very localized. If repaired well, it's probably fine, but it's a warning sign. Here's a relac that needs a pad job and is already bid up to >$2300.

Which one is better cleveland or eastlake? Yeah i notice that. What would you do if you were me? Should I continue with the purchase as I cant try the horn first? That bow mark is really bothering.

 

[Yellowhorn]

Why don't you tell us what the seller asks for, and we can tell you whether it is a good deal or not!

If you like Kings or vintage horns, look around and don't forget to check the sale section here. I think Art_Salt just posted his S20 alto for sale recently.

 

[SAXISMYAXE]

Which one is better cleveland or eastlake? Yeah i notice that. What would you do if you were me? Should I continue with the purchase as I cant try the horn first? That bow mark is really bothering.

Cleveland made horns are generally valued higher. My favorite Zephyrs and Super 20s are those made in the late 1940's and early 1950's.

Many owners of Eastlake made horns are very happy with their examples though. The cosmetics and a few cost cutting measures make them slightly less "spiffy", but a good player is a good player, so don't discount the possibilities until you've tried it.

 

[Grumps]

Now I've been looking into this Cleveland/Eastlake thing for a bit and have made the following observations:

1) It wasn't like they moved production to Mexico for cheap labor. They moved across town to a more modern facility.

2) Many of the same craftsmen from Cleveland remained in Eastlake for some years.

3) The cost cutting of Super 20's began in Cleveland, and some changes, such as eliminating the double socket neck, are actually welcomed by some players. The left hand table keys certainly were improved during the Super 20 run, and I actually wouldn't want an early one for this very reason.

Now these are just my observations, but it would seem to me that all the Eastlake horns get panned because of the very last run; the ones without the overslung octave arm on the neck. Sure I've seen arbitrary cut off numbers such as 460K for when they really went bad, but horns produced after that number still had the overslung neck and the better table keys. Yet many consider that the end of the preferred "early Eastlakes". Seems to me that good deals are to be had for some of those early 70's Eastlake horns. I know I've played one, that although was in bad need of an overhaul, still gave me that King thing... buttery flow and smooth sailing from octave to octave, and with that powerful edge. Can't wait to see what she does when properly dressed...

 

[Budget Explosion]

Similar bow lacquer wear on the King Super 20 alto for sale for $3300 on the USA Horn website and on the King Super 20 alto for sale on the Vintage Sax.com website (also going for $3300.) Shmuelyosef, please give us your "perhaps" assessment of these horns. I've read where you brag about how many Kings you've seen, please tell us why these three horns for sale have the similar lacquer wear.

 

[mjs10]

Asking price is $1900 including shipping to Australia. Its actually well priced. IMHO

 

[Robert_Allan]

The cost cutting of Super 20's began in Cleveland, and some changes, such as eliminating the double socket neck, are actually welcomed by some players. The left hand table keys certainly were improved during the Super 20 run, and I actually wouldn't want an early one for this very reason.

Grumps,

If you're looking for something to do, I'd like to see you expound on what characteristic or feature you think is better about the later table keys. After about 384K I think they took a definite turn for the worse, and the octave key mechanism, too.

The very earliest Super 20's had a table key arrangement that was too low (278K - 283K), and then it was raised up about 1/2 inch on the horn.

From 283K - 294K the G# was a flat pearl. Contrary to what many people say, I think this was one of the best designs table keys on all Super 20's, and shouldn't be confused with the reversed hinged models that followed. The pearl octave keys are really cool on these horns, too. This is my favorite vintage of all Super 20's; the low Bb and low B are easier to reach and play than on a Mark VI, and playing from low Bb to C#, or low B to C# is quite easy.

From about 294K - 305K the G# key mechanism was reworked, and I think this one feature has a significant negative impact on the value of these horns, to the tune of about 20 - 30 percent. The G# key on these Super 20's hinges in a funny way and makes it cumbersome to play. The G# key is pearl faced in this range.

Then at about 305K came what many consider the best Super 20 table key design of all, and with full pearls this design lasted until about (350K)? Not sure about when it ended. The roller pearls on this range were barrell shaped, and the G# key had a pearl facing.

The design that followed is also excellent, but doesn't have a pearl facing on the G#. This design lasted until around 384K.

When the single socket necks kicked in, at around 384K, the table keys got wider and more square in appearance. I think people familiar with the different designs generally agree that this style is not superior to the earlier Super 20 table key designs, except for the very first series, and the the range that started at around 295K with the reverse hinge.

I had tenors in mind regarding everything above when it was written, but I believe most of it would apply to altos, too.

 

[Grumps]

Thanks for that Robert; very informative. My preference for the later table keys has to do with the lack of the wrap around Bb key. Now the early Zephyr alto I've got only has the Bb above the B (not wrapped around the back), and I'm usually reaching behind the low B key and hitting the key arm to play low Bb. I've got big hands though, and a good sized pinky. That's why with the wrap around design, B can be a pain to pick out cleanly. Oh, I have other vintage horns with the wrap around Bb, but King's version seems more cramped for me. I personally would rather have even the later Eastlake version of the left hand table keys than the earlier ones whose problems you've highlighted.

Also a side note on the Super 20 tenor I tried... seems it actually was a pre-460K model; and not just above that number. So yippee, I guess, though even Stephen Howard makes a compelling case for the later Eastlakes, after the neck was normalized.

 

[shmuelyosef]

Good synopsis. For me, tjhe distinguishing factor is the effort required on the C# in the 'wraparound' design. From there they went to the very awkward wraparound design, that seems to run away from my baby finger. Then they went to a conventional hinge with a single big Bb roller that also seemed to want to run away....I think that the taper was excessive. The double roller Bb key with the Balanced action style of linkage (although HN WHITE made this as complicated as they could from an assembly/regulation standpoint) plays the easiest. My early Eastlake (which has this double-roller spatula, but still has many other S20 features that I value) is the only Super 20 (King for that matter) that I have kept. I've slowly gotten addicted to true modern keywork and have found horns I'm delighted with.