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Does anyone know if a 6M shooting star neck will fit/work in a Chu?
Neck interchanability?
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A 14M Director model (so called "Shooting Star" among collectors) is not a 6M artist (or Naked Lady). These are two distinct models.
The variations in octave key designs utilized at various times on the 6M would have to be taken into consideration, even if one could find a match with the neck and body tenon between the three models.
I'll have to drag out my examples of the 6M and New Wonder I & II to experiment with the fit.
This really belongs in the NECKS sub forum, so I'm moving it there.
The variations in octave key designs utilized at various times on the 6M would have to be taken into consideration, even if one could find a match with the neck and body tenon between the three models.
I'll have to drag out my examples of the 6M and New Wonder I & II to experiment with the fit.
This really belongs in the NECKS sub forum, so I'm moving it there.
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The last 6M's were Shooting Star engraved...so I think the OP is speaking of a late 60's-early '70's 6M.
Quick answer to your question: NO, a late-model 6M neck does NOT fit a Chu. Even if it did, how do you get around the double-socket ? You'd have to either alter the neck of the 6M or the receiver/ferrule of the Chu.
Generally....Conn alto necks were pretty consistent over the 60+ or so years that real Conns existed.
A Wonder or New Wonder (Chu) neck fits a 14M (Mexico or usa) or 50M or 7M of Pan American...and vice-versa. A '37 6M neck fits a '69 6M like a glove....and vice-versa.
So...if what you need is a neck for a Chu, look for a 14M or 50M Director... or Pan American.... horn or neck.
The problem with a 6M is (of course)...the double-socket. None of the above fit a 6M double-socket receiver/ferrule...it was a different diameter. Even if it did...you'd have to get a tech to rig up something to make the 6M receiver tighten the ferrule....which becomes a hecka complicated proposition !!!
This, as Saxismyaxe points out...is only ONE of the many issues of switcheroo necks. The tenon fit is really almost the least of your worries...because now you have to concern yourself with intonation and tone.
There's the tenon diameter...there's the overall length of the neck...and there's the taper and bore of the neck from mouthpiece to tenon. Relatively significant differences in the latter two can really mess up the horn's sound and intonation. In the tech section it has been suggested that octave pip location comes in a distant fourth to these first three issues.
(This is what burns me up about sellers who claim "slap our new neck on your horn and watch your problems disappear !" Yeah, right. :tsk: It's not as easy as that, even if the tenon fits perfectly).
That said...the 14M, 50M, 7M, and Pan Am necks are all pretty much interchangable...maybe requiring a slight tweak by a tech (i.e. slight tenon expansion or compression)...but their lengths and bores are pretty consistent with one another (although you may have to mess with the octave key rings to get them to meet the octave stem of whichever horn you are putting it on).
Just at a quick glance, the Chu neck (while fitting a lot of other Conn receiver ferrules) is the exact same length as a 14M neck and the pips are located within about 3mm of each other...BUT the opening diameter on the m'piece end of a Chu is significantly NARROWER than on a Director 14M. Which means the Chu's neck tapers much more dramatically to its tenon than does a 14M's neck.
Would this throw something out of whack ? Probably. But could it possibly work OK ? Yes...possibly it could.
IF it messes with tone or intonation....would it be correctable ? Maybe, given an experienced tech.
I am assuming from your Q you have a neckless Chu. In that case...take my advice above and try to find one of the horns or necks I mentioned ~ I say 'horns' because a fair amount of the time you can find a whole beater Director or Pan Am for under $100 (add to that maybe $25 of tech work for a perfect fit)...while finding an actual Chu neck or having one made or significantly altered can cost between $250-600.
Your only other option...which will end up costing about the same...is to just try to nab three different individual sax necks (maybe get the specs of an actual Chu neck...THEN ask the seller for 1) the tenon diameter...and if it is w/i around .5mm of the actual diameter needed for a Chu...it's a good candidate. 2) then the length of the neck...if it's shorter by less than about 3MM...or if it is LONGER by whatever...it may also be a good candidate). Slap 'em all on, see which one sounds and intones the best....and there you have it.
Since single, unidentified necks on eFlay tend to go between $30-50...this will also cost you around $125-175, in the end. So it's a bit of a wash between this and just grabbing an old Conn second-line horn.....and I'd be happy to buy the body of the horn you find for $40, so you can even recoup some $ there....
Quick answer to your question: NO, a late-model 6M neck does NOT fit a Chu. Even if it did, how do you get around the double-socket ? You'd have to either alter the neck of the 6M or the receiver/ferrule of the Chu.
Generally....Conn alto necks were pretty consistent over the 60+ or so years that real Conns existed.
A Wonder or New Wonder (Chu) neck fits a 14M (Mexico or usa) or 50M or 7M of Pan American...and vice-versa. A '37 6M neck fits a '69 6M like a glove....and vice-versa.
So...if what you need is a neck for a Chu, look for a 14M or 50M Director... or Pan American.... horn or neck.
The problem with a 6M is (of course)...the double-socket. None of the above fit a 6M double-socket receiver/ferrule...it was a different diameter. Even if it did...you'd have to get a tech to rig up something to make the 6M receiver tighten the ferrule....which becomes a hecka complicated proposition !!!
This, as Saxismyaxe points out...is only ONE of the many issues of switcheroo necks. The tenon fit is really almost the least of your worries...because now you have to concern yourself with intonation and tone.
There's the tenon diameter...there's the overall length of the neck...and there's the taper and bore of the neck from mouthpiece to tenon. Relatively significant differences in the latter two can really mess up the horn's sound and intonation. In the tech section it has been suggested that octave pip location comes in a distant fourth to these first three issues.
(This is what burns me up about sellers who claim "slap our new neck on your horn and watch your problems disappear !" Yeah, right. :tsk: It's not as easy as that, even if the tenon fits perfectly).
That said...the 14M, 50M, 7M, and Pan Am necks are all pretty much interchangable...maybe requiring a slight tweak by a tech (i.e. slight tenon expansion or compression)...but their lengths and bores are pretty consistent with one another (although you may have to mess with the octave key rings to get them to meet the octave stem of whichever horn you are putting it on).
Just at a quick glance, the Chu neck (while fitting a lot of other Conn receiver ferrules) is the exact same length as a 14M neck and the pips are located within about 3mm of each other...BUT the opening diameter on the m'piece end of a Chu is significantly NARROWER than on a Director 14M. Which means the Chu's neck tapers much more dramatically to its tenon than does a 14M's neck.
Would this throw something out of whack ? Probably. But could it possibly work OK ? Yes...possibly it could.
IF it messes with tone or intonation....would it be correctable ? Maybe, given an experienced tech.
I am assuming from your Q you have a neckless Chu. In that case...take my advice above and try to find one of the horns or necks I mentioned ~ I say 'horns' because a fair amount of the time you can find a whole beater Director or Pan Am for under $100 (add to that maybe $25 of tech work for a perfect fit)...while finding an actual Chu neck or having one made or significantly altered can cost between $250-600.
Your only other option...which will end up costing about the same...is to just try to nab three different individual sax necks (maybe get the specs of an actual Chu neck...THEN ask the seller for 1) the tenon diameter...and if it is w/i around .5mm of the actual diameter needed for a Chu...it's a good candidate. 2) then the length of the neck...if it's shorter by less than about 3MM...or if it is LONGER by whatever...it may also be a good candidate). Slap 'em all on, see which one sounds and intones the best....and there you have it.
Since single, unidentified necks on eFlay tend to go between $30-50...this will also cost you around $125-175, in the end. So it's a bit of a wash between this and just grabbing an old Conn second-line horn.....and I'd be happy to buy the body of the horn you find for $40, so you can even recoup some $ there....
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Okay,
Enough with the opinions. Let's bring on some info:
1966 Conn Director Shooting-Star student model alto - Neck tenon size is 24.5 mm according to my cheap calipers.
If somebody would post with the neck socket diameter of an average Chu alto , we could probably answer this.
Enough with the opinions. Let's bring on some info:
1966 Conn Director Shooting-Star student model alto - Neck tenon size is 24.5 mm according to my cheap calipers.
If somebody would post with the neck socket diameter of an average Chu alto , we could probably answer this.
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:scratch: Hmmmmm...earlier today, after reading the original post....I put my 14M neck onto my Chu...and my Chu neck onto my 14M....and they fit each other.
Does that constitute "opinion" ? :smilebox:
I then took my Pan Am neck and put it on my Chu...and my Chu neck into my Pan Am...and they fit each other perfectly... :cheers:
Does that constitute "speculation" ?????
Perhaps I had made the previous suggestions because I already tried them myself...
Does that constitute "opinion" ? :smilebox:
I then took my Pan Am neck and put it on my Chu...and my Chu neck into my Pan Am...and they fit each other perfectly... :cheers:
Does that constitute "speculation" ?????
Perhaps I had made the previous suggestions because I already tried them myself...
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271 Posts
Sorry guys, I read my original post, and what I meant is would a 14 M/Director/Shooting Star neck fit a Chu or New Wonder. I'm currently working on a 6M and the brain cells locked up. But you all got there on your own. What I was going after is this. I often see New Wonders and Chu's up for sale but missing the neck. So, If you had a shooting star neck available you could piece together an axe with a "New York" neck that would play like a typical Conn. Opens up some interesting possibilities.
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