[SAXISMYAXE]

Does anyone have an idea who manufactured the following horn? This is not my sax, so additional photos and info is not available:

I confess that I have never heard of this stencil brand.

 

[RootyTootoot]

To me that looks very like a Buescher TT (plated?) but I'm no expert..

 

[milandro]

funny you should say so but recently an Alcazar appeared in the classified ads in Holland sold by a shop. He calls it a CONN but omits in the pictures to show a revealing Mercedes Benz guard. The model in the ad is very different from yours and looks a bit like a transitional 6M with no rolled toneholes
http://link.marktplaats.nl/503000052

I have found references to trumpets and long cornets branded the same way

 

[milandro]

could these people help ?
http://orgs.usd.edu/nmm/connarch.html

 

[SAXISMYAXE]

I've invited the owner of this horn to join and respond. Hopefully they can post further photos.

Two characteristics that should help ID the maker are the design of the right hand pinkie key table, and the soldering of the key guards onto the actual tone hole chimney wall. The somewhat Conn like "A" and "L" markings do not look like Buescher to me, as the later tended to use the "LOW PITCH" stamp on their TT era horns.

I confess that I am stumped.

 

[RootyTootoot]

, as the later tended to use the "LOW PITCH" stamp on their TT era horns.

Ah yes. That's quite true. I've never seen a TT with L rather than LOW PITCH either.

 

[SAXISMYAXE]

The tone holes appear to be drawn, and not soldered. This would rule out H.N. White and Martin as possible manufacturers, as I believe that both used their typical soldered tone hole construction for the stencil horns that they produced.

The lack of rolled tone holes isn't a factor, as Conn didn't include that feature on their stenciled horns anyway.

That distinctive bow brace is definitely unknown to me.

 

[Grumps]

When in doubt... Couturier. You'd have to get LaPorte to confirm. But in an old thread he mentioned that they used the letters over and under the serial numbers like Conn, and they produced an Elkhart line/stencil. The serial number also fits within one of their ranges.

 

[Dave Dolson]

Didn't Conn use the "A" as a designator for ALTO (like the S for soprano, the C for C-Mel, etc.)? That looks like a Conn stamping to me. Given the split-bell pads, 1920's probably, consistent with Conn's markings. DAVE

 

[milandro]

When in doubt... Couturier. You'd have to get LaPorte to confirm. But in an old thread he mentioned that they used the letters over and under the serial numbers like Conn, and they produced an Elkhart line/stencil. The serial number also fits within one of their ranges.

I think that you might be spot on!

 

[Alley Cat]

Not really a tremendous help but on this list of registered trade names the name Alcazar is credited to Williams Bros. for cornets, c.1920-1930, with the source being N.L.I.

Alcazar........it sounds to me like a horn that would appeal to snake charmers.

http://www.horn-u-copia.net/pubtrade.php?sortby=name &selby=&ltr=substr(name,1,1)="A"

 

[milandro]

but it says Elkhart indiana and not Cleveland Ohio .........

 

[JSwett]

Wow i love the history knowledge you all have! So fascinating!

 

[JSwett]

I have found some more clues. Williams brothers were indeed making this type of stenciling. I have found another piece with the same stencil. It's a trombone. And in the case there was a letter that stated the owner of the instrument played in a band in Maine in 1916 with it. And his granddaughter again playing it in a band in Maine in 1939. Clearly the trombone was made before 1916. The problem is every source I encounter believes this particular strand of models made by the williams brothers were manufactured in the years 1921-28. Obviously there is a discrepancy in the dating of the trombone. And I believe as well as the saxophone I have come across, and the trumpet previously brought to light in this forum. Here's the kicker. The exact stencil was being used in France before the Williams brothers took it over in Elkhart. There seems to be some lost Years
There.

 

[SAXISMYAXE]

This sax has design characteristics that definitely date it to the 1920's and early 30's. If for no other reason, we can ascertain that it is no earlier in manufacture date than the early 1920's due to the High Art Deco engraving pattern, which was not to be found prior to that decade. In fact, most instrument engraving in the early 1920's was more in the floral and Art Nouveau styles. Certainly so during the teens.

Since this is a stencil horn, expecting all instruments with this branding to be made by the same provider is contrary to the norm during the "golden age". Indeed, many contemporary stencil lines were supplied by multiple makers, such as Wurlitzer, Elkhart, Perfacktone etc.

 

[JSwett]

The problem is. This style of engraving appears on earlier examples from france

 

[Dr G]

The problem is. This style of engraving appears on earlier examples from france

You mean that part about "Made in Elkhart"? :twisted:

If you're gonna make a stencil, why not copy ("pay homage to") any engraving pattern you like???

 

[Pete Thomas]

This sax has design characteristics that definitely date it to the 1920's and early 30's. If for no other reason, we can ascertain that it is no earlier in manufacture date than the early 1920's due to the High Art Deco engraving pattern, which was not to be found prior to that decade. In fact, most instrument engraving in the early 1920's was more in the floral and Art Nouveau styles. Certainly so during the teens.
.

I would go further than that and say the engraving implies early 30s much more strongly than any time in the 20s, though if it was a European horn it might be earlier.

 

[SAXISMYAXE]

Not to mention the fact that stenciled horns RARELY ever utilize the same serial numbering system as their maker branded brethren. This means that most online date of manufacture vs. serial number charts DO NOT apply to stenciled horns, even if you know the maker.

This leads to countless cases of confusion in dating a horn among the uninitiated.

That and the 1914 William S. Haynes drawn tone hole patent that so many misidentify as the date of the horn.:bluewink:

 

[SAXISMYAXE]

I would go further than that and say the engraving implies early 30s much more strongly than any time in the 20s, though if it was a European horn it might be earlier.

Exactly my point. The floral style is more commonly found on instruments dating through the early 20's, with high style Art Deco emerging in the later 20's, and reaching full fruition in the 1930's.