[lucian]

I am a tenor saxophone player currently playing on a Conn "Chu Berry" model horn. I have only tried about 3 different mouthpieces for jazz playing in my life. I've always modeled my sound after Lester Young (and Sonny Rollins, I suppose) but my current set-up really fights me in my efforts. I'm currently playing on a Lawton B 6 star (staninless steel mouthpiece), but it's not working for me at all. This is a very straight-chambered, heavy metal mp, very good for a vibrant, loud, cutting sound. I would prefer a hard rubber mouthpiece with a more open chamber (I think this type of mp would give me a darker, smoother sound...right?). I'm looking for a free-blowing mouthpiece which allows for mellow sound and good sub-tone production.

I recently tried a Brilhart Ebolin, Regular 3 *, but it seemed "plastic-y" and the sound was thin and too "compact".... It seemed like a student or amateur mouthpiece.

Does anyone have any suggestions on which mouthpiece to try next? Your advice is appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Honeyboy]

It really is the way you play, not the mouthpiece. I have listened alot to Lester Young music and just by trying to copy him, it can be done with lots of mouthpieces. I sound less like him , however, using an Ebolin than, for example, when I use a Stainless Berg 130/2, which is somewhat counter intuitive. And Sonny Rollin's tone is not like Lester Young's tone, in my opinion. You are asking for two different tones. I can also get close with a metal STM 7* Otto Link and an ARB Great Neck Original Tonalin 7*(plastic). It really is the way you subtone and voice, more so than the actual mouthpiece, as long as your mouthpiece is faced properly, and your horn is adjusted correctly, allowing for easier subtoning. It's like imitating a voice. Your embouchure and throat shape should adjust kind of automatically the more you try to copy his tone. Also, experiment with different brands and sizes of reeds.

 

[dshook]

Get a good hard rubber otto link, maybe one of the new slant copies, and work a lot with recordings and you'll be able to get any sound you want out of that horn, they are very flexible.

 

[bandmommy]

Find out what mouthpiece Lester used and get one just like it?

 

[bkobog]

it is more embouchure than gear, in my opinion.

 

[daigle65]

it is more embouchure than gear, in my opinion.

Up to a point....

You're never going to sound like Lester Young, no matter how much you practice, if you're playing a high baffle, large tip mouthpiece.

Find a large chamber, low baffle piece in a moderate opening. A current production hard rubber Otto Link could work if you can find a good one.
Try darker sounding classical reeds (Vandoren traditional, Rico Reserve etc...)

 

[Stretch]

Most of the photos of Lester playing with Basie band (prewar), which is my favourite Prez era by far, have Lester playing a Tone Master Link. Vintage mouthpieces being such an expensive crapshoot, I agree with the "good rubber Link" advice but I prefer the standard Tone Edge to the New Vintage for a darker more flexible tone. I have both.

 

[saxphil]

A nice flexible large chambered tenor mpc.

Try different reeds to get you in the ballpark, for most styles of music.
My best suggestions, that I have used:

1) Tenney Jazzmaster, my preference
2) Ted Klum Focustone Acoustimer or Resotone Acoustimer
3) refaced Link STM

... and then... copy, copy, copy.

 

[robscott]

I agree with the advice above and here are a few more suggestions. Pieces I've played that helped me get a lester type sound are:
selmer short shank soloist
Tenney Jazzmaster
Ralph Morgan excalibur
mouthpiece cafe espresso

However, playing along with the classic solos (lady be good, dickies dream etc ) and nailing every inflection and nuance of that effortless swing and phrasing will get you most of the way there regardless of equipment IMO.

 

[mrpeebee]

Most of the photos of Lester playing with Basie band (prewar), which is my favourite Prez era by far, have Lester playing a Tone Master Link. Vintage mouthpieces being such an expensive crapshoot, I agree with the "good rubber Link" advice but I prefer the standard Tone Edge to the New Vintage for a darker more flexible tone. I have both.

Lester Young didn't play a metal Tone Master (Otto Link model of 1940-1950) in his Basie period, but a Master Link (model of 1930-1935). Tip sizes weren't big in that time, they normally went up to 5* (but had longer facings than current Links). He also used very hard cane reeds. I've read somewhere that he used to cut bari reeds to tenor sized reeds. In the 40's he started playing an ebonite Brilhart around tip 7* (very big for that time) and he also often used plastic reeds. His sound is quite different after his mouthpiece change, but that could also be due to other reasons than only his mouthpiece. I prefer his Basie sound by far.

Like some people mentioned above you will most probably never sound exactly like Lester. A moderate tip mouthpiece (6* to 8) with a big chamber and a medium or hard reed could bring you in his direction. But, as mentioned by others, you are the most important factor .

 

[bariandyf]

I'd have a chat with Phil Engleman - http://www.phil-tone.com/
he posts here under the name sigmund451.
Tell him what you're looking for, and I'm sure he'll be able to sort you out, and he's very good to deal with (and well respected on the forum).

 

[reedsburn62]

And Sonny Rollin's tone is not like Lester Young's tone, in my opinion. You are asking for two different tones.

Yes, Lester Young and Colemqn Hawkins were the two main yet very different concepts for jazz tenor saxophone and Sonny came more from Coleman's rough sound. Lester was influenced by Frankie Trumbauer, light airy tone. If you want to sound like both get a good Link type piece which will allow you to manipulate the sound, then learn how to do that.

 

[Billt4mn]

FWIW, I play a Tenney Jazzmaster 7* on a 91,xxx Selmer tenor and found that Vandoren reeds give me a meatier, fuller (darker?) sound than others I've tried.

A nice flexible large chambered tenor mpc.

Try different reeds to get you in the ballpark, for most styles of music.
My suggestions, that I have used:

1) Tenney Jazzmaster, my preference
2) Ted Klum Focustone Acoustimer or Resotone
3) refaced Link STM

 

[martinm5862]

I don't think Lester Young thought very much about about the mouthpiece he used. There wasn't really many choices 60 years ago.
A friend of mine used a Lakey which many players would consider a bright piece with a Selmer and sounded like Lester.

 

[gary]

I'm in agreement with most of the suggestions above. Personally, I'd probably get a HR Link Tone Edge 6*. I might even get wwbw.com to send me 4 of the "new" Otto Link Vintage Mouthpieces and give them a try.

And most of all, I'd do a lot of playing along with recordings, trying to match Prez' tone and articulations.

 

[lucian]

Thanks everyone for your excellent suggestions. You've given me great advice, and many new mouthpiece options to try next. I wish I had access to a forum like this 20 years ago. I would be a much better player today....[rolleyes]

 

[Sigmund]

It sounds like your done with the thread and have gotten your answers. I apologize but in wanting to get my $.02 in I did not read them all because I found that I disagreed strongly with quite a few and didn't want to get balled up in a SOTW bar brawl. So, here's my take:

Like you I am a devotee of Lester Young and have transcribed and bought the transcriptions of most of his recorded solos. These were helpful but not conclusive. Since we deal in vintage horns there is a constant stream of old Conns and Bueschers flowing through here and often they include a mouthpiece in the case. These findings are mostly rubbish but every so often there is a gem. The result is that my collection of early mouthpieces, mostly untouched by the re-facer, has grown to respectable size if that is not an oxymoron on it's face.

In my quest I used a couple of assumptions about Lester based on his biographies most of which I have read. Some of his mouthpiece choices were driven by his health which was never very good and from his late thirties on was abysmal. His teeth were particularly bad and probably caused him some pain when playing and must have affected his embouchure to some extent. Therefore I believe that he tended to play mouthpieces with small tip openings for comfort and because it was the style of the day.

So, cutting to the chase, I have found that tip openings of around .070" (4) but no more than .085 (5*) and having fairly large chambers, coupled with disciplined adherence to copying his phrasing style, provide the best approximation of the Prez sound on the Conn New Wonder, Lester's horn of choice for most of his career. There are numerous photos of him playing of a Link ToneMaster but also on a black HR piece with an Ebolin sort of shape. I'm sorry that I can't be more precise about what piece he played but other than the major specs on the mouthpiece, it's really irrelevant since we've pretty well proven, at great personal expense to a lot of people, that duplicating a famous player's setup absolutely does not duplicate that player's sound. Therefore we have to fiddle with the setup until we get the sound we want using our chops.

Fortunately the mouthpieces I am talking about are not expensive and carry Buescher or King stencils. A Brilhardt Ebolin in 4* or 5 with a 2M or 2H Rico Jazz Select reed does a fine job but also one of the old white Buescher pieces, untouched of course, does just as well. There are many more that do the job with of course nuances of tone color that let you tailor your sound toward the Prez ideal. But, keep the tip opening small and don't overblow the piece and you may be surprised with the outcome. It all works better if you record yourself and listen as your own judge.

Your Pal,
Siggy

 

[dorono]

I'm not an expert in mouthpieces, so I won't chime in on that front. But as far as sounding like Lester, or really, any player for that matter - a lof of that has to do with matching that player's phrasing, articulation, and time feel.

It's kind of like trying to do a Joe Pesci impression, trying to imitate the tonal qualities of Joe's voice while speaking the way you normally would to your co-workers. You wouldn't sound like Joe (unless you're a 60 year old gangster from New Jersey). To sound like Joe Pesci, you have to emphasize certain words the way he does, you have to speak in his rhythm, you have to pronounce (ie: articulate) certain words the way he does.

So hopefully that illustrates the principle. Tone quality is important, and the right equipment can help, but to me, the biggest part of sounding like someone is to *play like them.* From there the tone quality should naturally follow. That said, hopefully you're putting your own twist on Lester rather than copying explicitly.

I hope that helps!

 

[ManEast]

It sounds like your done with the thread and have gotten your answers. I apologize but in wanting to get my $.02 in I did not read them all because I found that I disagreed strongly with quite a few and didn't want to get balled up in a SOTW bar brawl. So, here's my take:

Like you I am a devotee of Lester Young and have transcribed and bought the transcriptions of most of his recorded solos. These were helpful but not conclusive. Since we deal in vintage horns there is a constant stream of old Conns and Bueschers flowing through here and often they include a mouthpiece in the case. These findings are mostly rubbish but every so often there is a gem. The result is that my collection of early mouthpieces, mostly untouched by the re-facer, has grown to respectable size if that is not an oxymoron on it's face.

In my quest I used a couple of assumptions about Lester based on his biographies most of which I have read. Some of his mouthpiece choices were driven by his health which was never very good and from his late thirties on was abysmal. His teeth were particularly bad and probably caused him some pain when playing and must have affected his embouchure to some extent. Therefore I believe that he tended to play mouthpieces with small tip openings for comfort and because it was the style of the day.

So, cutting to the chase, I have found that tip openings of around .070" (4) but no more than .085 (5*) and having fairly large chambers, coupled with disciplined adherence to copying his phrasing style, provide the best approximation of the Prez sound on the Conn New Wonder, Lester's horn of choice for most of his career. There are numerous photos of him playing of a Link ToneMaster but also on a black HR piece with an Ebolin sort of shape. I'm sorry that I can't be more precise about what piece he played but other than the major specs on the mouthpiece, it's really irrelevant since we've pretty well proven, at great personal expense to a lot of people, that duplicating a famous player's setup absolutely does not duplicate that player's sound. Therefore we have to fiddle with the setup until we get the sound we want using our chops.

Fortunately the mouthpieces I am talking about are not expensive and carry Buescher or King stencils. A Brilhardt Ebolin in 4* or 5 with a 2M or 2H Rico Jazz Select reed does a fine job but also one of the old white Buescher pieces, untouched of course, does just as well. There are many more that do the job with of course nuances of tone color that let you tailor your sound toward the Prez ideal. But, keep the tip opening small and don't overblow the piece and you may be surprised with the outcome. It all works better if you record yourself and listen as your own judge.

Your Pal,
Siggy

Hi Siggy.
Pure class man!

 

[jazzznbluezzz]

You already have the right horn.

Many large chambered medium tipped mouthpieces will get you close if you try.
However as a big fan of the Lester Young sound I would suggest not to give up on the Brilhart Ebolins too soon.
I agree on the embouchure and timing and phrasing as equally if not most important in this matter.

I tried numbers of Brilhart mouthpieces and found one that really gets me close to that warm, thick, soft yet strong and powerful Pres tone. With just a little edge when pushed.
It is a 3* and has a tip in the .85 range and it is a great match with RJS 2H. However I still play comfortably on it with thicker reeds up to 3,5. I still have several more
Brilharts but this one just has it.
Getting close in tone out of the box helps a lot however as others said before it is mostly about embouchure and timing.
Try to think like Lester (think rather not drink). Leave out notes and emphasise the most important ones and use a laid back timing. Never repeat
the same solo and just swing, swing, swing!

And then ofcourse you need too wear a flat pork pie and rubber soled soft shoes.