[John Laughter]

I was looking for some history about mouthpiece designs and found the following sites which may have already been posted in the past. I was looking for more info about "baffles" which is covered in most of these sites. Some explanations are basic and some are more complex and interesting. If you have other sites to add please do so.

Years ago I found a website that explained some of the modifications that a few of the big band players of the 40's and 50's did to their m/p's to improve the response and sound. Not sure if that site is still around.

https://theowanne.com/knowledge/baffle-shapes/

https://www.syos.co/en/blog/gear/baffle-saxophone-mouthpiece

https://www.sax.co.uk/general-mouthpiece-information.irs

https://www.wwbw.com/the-music-room/anatomy-of-a-saxophone-mouthpiece

http://terrylandry.virb.com/fundamentals-of-mouthpiece-acoustics

https://www.howtoplaysaxophone.org/saxophone-mouthpieces/

https://www.neffmusic.com/blog/2017/08/finding-the-holy-grail-of-sax-mouthpieces/

https://tamingthesaxophone.com/saxophone-mouthpieces

https://digscholarship.unco.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1544&context=dissertations

https://ir.uiowa.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1798&context=etd

 

[1saxman]

Since I am not a mouthpiece maker or technician, you may 'take this with a grain of salt', but here are a few things I have learned;
'aerodynamics' has nothing to do with mouthpiece design. The air flow through a mouthpiece is not fast enough to create friction, and turbulence is not important. This also means that polishing, even at the very start of the baffle, has no importance. The area of the mouthpiece directly past the tip rail is the 'sweet spot' and 90% of what makes a mouthpiece good happens in the first 1/4". Obviously this includes the most important end of the facing curve and the physical attributes of the tip rail and side rails. The baffle has different effects on the sound depending on the tip opening, because the tip opening sets the distance from the plane of the table to any point on the baffle. The closer the reed is to the baffle, the more likely it is that the sound will be brighter. This is why certain great players achieved full tones with wide open mouthpieces and high baffles - the reed is farther from the baffle, allowing a 'darker' element to the sound. Frequently but certainly not always, the reed used in these instances will be softer. Some players develop such a strong embouchure that they can handle a .130/0 with a #5 reed (like Grover Washington, Jr) and still have a wonderful, rich sound, not 'thin/bright' at all.
Notice that I don't describe the process by which all this makes tone on the sax, because I don't know the answer, other than the purpose of the mouthpiece is to allow the reed to squawk and to modify that squawk into a tone that then passes through the sax and becomes a musical sound - in some cases.
There are so many variables in a sax mouthpiece that the combinations are pretty close to infinite, which explains the astounding number and variety of mouthpieces available today.

 

[MojoBari]

I agree. I think in most cases, the “strong embouchure” needed to play open hard setups uses a controlled amount of biting to close off the tip opening. This is needed to get the reed to speak then they may relax some to get a big sound. Doing this for a 3-4 hour gig is tough. Not a great strategy for most players.

 

[KeithL]

I agree. I think in most cases, the "strong embouchure" needed to play open hard setups uses a controlled amount of biting to close off the tip opening. This is needed to get the reed to speak then they may relax some to get a big sound. Doing this for a 3-4 hour gig is tough. Not a great strategy for most players.

My observation and experience agrees with this but I'd add that guys that are on the horn for 4-5 hours a day for 5-6 days a week often have the chops to handle these bigger tips and medium hard reeds. Occasionally folks who have played just a fair amount on a weekly basis for several decades also seem to reach this point as well though few seem to choose to play open setups. Folks who practice an hour a day 3 times a week really have no business playing these large tip openings despite often being drawn to them.

As far as big band players go I suspect they were looking to get what lots of players want; more volume and projection without a significant increase in brightness or blowing effort. I'm sure this resulted in a fair amount of experimentation as well as some destroyed mouthpieces if the boxes full of stuff my old teachers had laying around were any indication.

 

[mrpeebee]

Years ago I found a website that explained some of the modifications that a few of the big band players of the 40's and 50's did to their m/p's to improve the response and sound. Not sure if that site is still around.

That would be the best link you could share!

I read about that stuff a lot and while I don't have specific links, I think it was often related to opening the tip size (old mouthpieces often didn't go over a 5* tip), which also created some baffle. Further more I've seen statements about adding baffles and widening the entry point of the air at the corners of the tip rails. Also have seen remarks on doing chamber work at the throat (in the chamber) to avoid back pressure.

I know some people have really in depth knowledge on this, but don't want to share the info because it's actually often their most important business knowledge on mouthpiece design. Getting that knowledge asks for a lot of testing and costs to be made and almost no one wants to share that information for free.

 

[Benjamin Allen]

I agree. I think in most cases, the "strong embouchure" needed to play open hard setups uses a controlled amount of biting to close off the tip opening. This is needed to get the reed to speak then they may relax some to get a big sound. Doing this for a 3-4 hour gig is tough. Not a great strategy for most players.

You're absolutely correct. I have told a couple of the most elite saxophone players, who play on absurdly resistant set ups, that they should try to relax their lower lips and not "bite" the reed closed. It goes over like a lead balloon. I play on 9* to 10* set ups these days, and I use 2 to 2.5 reed strengths. I practice long tones each day with a completely relaxed lower lip, which is what I feel has to be done to apply the appropriate mechanics. Good observation, Keith.

 

[John Laughter]

That would be the best link you could share!

Yes I wish I could find it again. It had photos with names of the players from back in the day and indicated what they did, or had done to their m/p to make it play better for them. It was interesting reading.

I went to see Sil Austin in Atlanta when he was playing in the lobby of a hotel. His sound and style was one that had caught my attention in the 50's. We had a long conversation during his break and I asked about his metal m/p which, as I recall was an Otto Link (maybe a#9 or 10) at that time. He was not sure since it had been worked on years prior. He said that when he lived and played in New York that there was a repair person in downtown NY that worked on his two tenors and his m/p's. He said that he would let the man "ream out" (his words with a smile) the m/p until he got the tone that he wanted. Mr Austin indicated that several of the players that he knew would go to certain people to have their m/p's worked on to get a certain tone.

they should try to relax their lower lips and not "bite" the reed closed

Yes!

 

[Benjamin Allen]

I was looking for some history about mouthpiece designs and found the following sites which may have already been posted in the past. I was looking for more info about "baffles" which is covered in most of these sites. Some explanations are basic and some are more complex and interesting. If you have other sites to add please do so.

Years ago I found a website that explained some of the modifications that a few of the big band players of the 40's and 50's did to their m/p's to improve the response and sound. Not sure if that site is still around.

https://theowanne.com/knowledge/baffle-shapes/

https://www.syos.co/en/blog/gear/baffle-saxophone-mouthpiece

https://www.sax.co.uk/general-mouthpiece-information.irs

https://www.wwbw.com/the-music-room/anatomy-of-a-saxophone-mouthpiece

http://terrylandry.virb.com/fundamentals-of-mouthpiece-acoustics

https://www.howtoplaysaxophone.org/saxophone-mouthpieces/

https://www.neffmusic.com/blog/2017/08/finding-the-holy-grail-of-sax-mouthpieces/

https://tamingthesaxophone.com/saxophone-mouthpieces

https://digscholarship.unco.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1544&context=dissertations

https://ir.uiowa.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1798&context=etd

This is good information. Thank you for sharing it. These are a lot of the same sites I initially relied upon to develop a knowledge of mouthpieces. But then I started collecting the mouthpieces and getting various mouthpieces in for refacing. Over the years, I found that touching, measuring, and playing the original unmodified pieces was the best way to learn about them. I used to measure curves and the like, but overtime I found that internal dimensions matter a lot more than the reasonable curves that were on the pieces. Even with all of that, reading these sites was tremendously helpful.

 

[mrpeebee]

Yes I wish I could find it again. It had photos with names of the players from back in the day and indicated what they did, or had done to their m/p to make it play better for them. It was interesting reading.

I went to see Sil Austin in Atlanta when he was playing in the lobby of a hotel. His sound and style was one that had caught my attention in the 50's. We had a long conversation during his break and I asked about his metal m/p which, as I recall was an Otto Link (maybe a#9 or 10) at that time. He was not sure since it had been worked on years prior. He said that when he lived and played in New York that there was a repair person in downtown NY that worked on his two tenors and his m/p's. He said that he would let the man "ream out" (his words with a smile) the m/p until he got the tone that he wanted. Mr Austin indicated that several of the players that he knew would go to certain people to have their m/p's worked on to get a certain tone.

I'm sure I've (unfortunately) never seen that info before!

I've seen Sil Austin in 1984 when he gave a master class of Rock & Roll saxophone (together with Lee Allen and Boots Randolph) in music temple 'Paradiso' in Amsterdam (NL). It was organized by Hans Dulfer, who's daughter Candy was also there. Sil told during his part that he played a Link 8* at that time, but I'm not sure it was the same (refaced) piece he played in his earlier days. also didn't know enough about sax and mouthpieces in that time to ask the 'correct' questions (just bought my first tenor in that year)!

 

[John Laughter]

I've seen Sil Austin in 1984 when he gave a master class of Rock & Roll saxophone (together with Lee Allen and Boots Randolph) in music temple 'Paradiso' in Amsterdam (NL).

I know that was an excellent class. Lee Allen! I still listen to his style and tone from the early days with Little Richard, Fats Domino and many others.

This is good information. Thank you for sharing it.

Hey thanks Allen Mouthpieces. I appreciate that. I know nothing about a m/p other than some basics. I have played several brands over the years. Some worked well for me while others did not. It is good that we have so many to choose from and to test these days before buying them.

I remember back in the 60's that we could try out whatever the local music store had in stock. Or maybe we traded with another sax player. In those days it seemed to be the Links and Larsens, both HR and metal. I do not recall talking at all about tip openings or any of the mechanics of a m/p back in those days. It either worked for us or it didn't.

So it is good that some of today's m/p makers put info on the Net that can, in some ways, help players in making a decision. And the sound clips are also a great idea. Although I would like to hear more roof raising examples

 

[mijderf]

Here is another interesting old thread on mouthpiece setup tricks:

https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?74089-Mouthpiece-setup-quot-tricks-quot/page4

 

[John Laughter]

Here is another interesting old thread on mouthpiece setup tricks:

https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?74089-Mouthpiece-setup-quot-tricks-quot/page4

Thanks. I recall that post. I really like Pete Thomas' response regarding Illinois Jacquet :mrgreen: