[Johnvw]

Hi To All,
Some more questions from the old guy.
I have had the Soprano (Ammon) sax for about a month. Yamaha 4C mouthpiece and No.2 Reed.
I have found that from B3 up to B4, to me the sound is deep and earthy ( quite nice ). From C4 upto C5 is terrible, weak, no body, no fullness. I am in the process of purchasing another mouthpiece.

1) Appart from me, is there a reason why the mid register is so poor ( I check against a Korg meter ).

2) Rather than keep pursuing m/p and reeds is there a relationship between mouthpiece opening and reed strength.
What would I expect with increasing/ decreasing gap opening and reed strength. I am just so disappointed with the current sound.

Now to add insult to injury. As stated previously the sax is a fall back position if ICAN not continue with the violin, I would now like to continue with both. I chose the Soprano as it appears to be suitable for more classical and KGee type music, hence the violin.
I think my violin days are numbered, just not getting the shoulder movement required.

Now, because of the poor mid register sound that I am creating and the direction that I want to pursue HAVE I backed the wrong horse with sax selection.

Best wishes to all and thank you in advance.
Regards
John

 

[Aquarian]

Sopranos always sound like seagulls to me, but I like them anyway. If you like the "KG" sound, well, it is his thing. I am not qualified to talk classical.

That said, the reed you're using is very soft for a 4C in general, so before I threw up my hands I would try different reeds (of course depending on your embouchure and comfort). The 4C is very nice but is more "clear" than "full" in general, IMHO. Of course embouchure is first, but no question mouthpiece and reed are 2 and 3 in what sound you get. Thing is, reed cut is also important, so you can't replace any no.2 of any brand with another, or even substitute a different cut of the same brand, and expect the same sound or response. In general you can use a harder reed on a more closed mouthpiece, and your own embouchure will go towards a certain strength. Your embouchure is personal so that reed may be softer or harder than somebody else.

Reeds, however, are still cheaper than taking a spin of the mouthpiece wheel of fortune, especially if you aren't absolutely sure what you want. The 4C can do a lot, and with the right reed can be very nice in the middle register. I would either buy a few single reeds of different types or get sample packs.

Each sax definitely has strengths and weaknesses soundwise, but if you like Kenny's sound, that is there in the soprano. I think a month is not near enough time to develop a strong embouchure, and barely enough to truly evaluate a mouthpiece.

Are you doing embouchure exercises - long tones, overtones? It took me months before my embouchure got decent after I started up again, and I have past experience on sax. I would not expect the world out of the sax so quickly. Your sound will never stop developing, and it sounds like it hasn't hardly started. You have to give it time to grow and nurture it.

 

[skeller047]

As Aquarian hints, the issue you are having is almost certainly due to .... well, YOU! A month is not a long time to be playing anything. In terms of tone quality, the horn is probably the least important thing, by a long factor. What more expensive horns offer is usually around things like how well the keys fit, smoothness of action, general build quality, intonation ... things like that. Tonal qualities are more subtle, and I would not expect someone that has played for less than several months to notice a difference with a different horn, unless one of the instruments was badly out of adjustment.

I don't know what a "No 2" reed is - the brand makes a difference. A 2 Vandoren is much harder than a 2 Orange Box Rico, for example. I'm assuming that you are playing a Rico, as it's the most common. ("Orange Box" means they come in orange packaging.) A 2 is not too soft for a beginning player, but it might be worth trying a 2 1/2 or 3. Do not use cheap Chinese reeds, they just don't work (ask me how I know...). Stick with Rico, or D'Addario Select Jazz for now.

Also - stick with the Yamaha mouthpiece for a while. It's a good quality piece that plays well in all registers, and some pro players play them.

Regarding your issue with the different registers - I'm assuming that the pitch values you give are based on piano notes, those ranges correspond to the first and second register of the soprano. Saxophone players usually speak in terms of written notes, rather than piano equivalents (AKA "concert pitch"), so when you say "B1" you mean the low B on the saxophone. That way we can talk about the notes "on the horn" rather than having to transpose in our heads.

Anyway, the second register is indeed different, and the tone is always going to be somewhat brighter. This is just because of the acoustic properties of the instrument. Our job as players is to make them sound the same . I suggest working on the area between G1 (saxophone note - 3 fingers on the left hand, no octave key) and G2 (same fingering but WITH the octave key). Try to make the transition smooth between C#2 and D2 - that's where the register changes. Some long tones going across "the break" will help. Really concentrate on keeping your embouchure consistent in this range, and using good breath support.

Hope this helps, keep your questions coming!

 

[JL]

A month is not a long time to be playing anything.

Exactly! Everything Steve & Aquarian wrote above is excellent advice, so no need to repeat everything they said. But man, one month is an infinitesimal amount of time when it comes to learning a musical instrument. And getting a good tone on the sax (esp soprano, but all the other ones as well) is a long term project, to say the least. It's one of the biggest challenges as a beginner, so take your time and be patient. And definitely don't get caught up in equipment issues at this stage, assuming your horn is in good playing condition and you aren't using an 'extreme' mpc/reed setup (which you're not).

 

[Johnvw]

Hi to All,
Thank you for the replies.
My note terminology was for Bb sax ( via my iPad ) not concert pitch, ie G4 was 3 fingers l/h.
In future I will refer to 1D ( 3 r/h and 3 l/h ) & 2D ( 3 r/h and 3 l/h + oct key ).

In regard to Sax Speak, do you refer to the Sax notes or refer to concert pitch and transpose accordingly.

Sorry to be a pain but I welcome you all setting me on the correct path.

Regards
John

 

[AddictedToSax]

I';m going to go out on a limb and guess your tone on violin wasn';t very good after one month of experience. All of the above is good advice. Try opening your throat while doing tone exercises. Feel like you';re say ahhh. I struggled for years and couldn';t quite understand what they meant until I started messing around with flute and had to change the back of my throat to find low C. Since then the sax tone has been improving. Keep at it and be patient. It will come. Oh, and don';t bite down on the reed. Try to keep your embouchure loose as you can without losing control.

 

[Reet McVouty]

John, you've already been given some good technical advice on here. My first thought is about the horn itself. My assumption is that you purchased the Ammoon because it was cheap and as this is your starting point you didn't want to invest a lot of money on an instrument that you may not stick with. IMO your mouthpiece is of a higher quality than the horn itself, and I think that even someone with good saxophone skills would be hard pressed to play your horn in tune. A good quality used saxophone would have been a better option. Since you are already a violinist, I'm sure you put some study into that instrument and that probably started with a teacher. That should be your next step at least for a year or so while you get the fundamentals down. There are lots of teachers at this time doing Zoom and Skype. Good luck to you.

 

[JL]

In regard to Sax Speak, do you refer to the Sax notes or refer to concert pitch and transpose accordingly.

John, there is no 'absolute' answer to this question, but I'll give you what I'd consider would be the consensus among most musicians. When speaking of fingerings on the sax, or as you were doing, referring to a specific note on a specific horn (i.e. "high C on the soprano"), you would normally speak in the sax key. However, when simply speaking of notes in general, especially to other musicians who may or may not be playing transposing instruments, it's best to speak in concert key. If I'm on the bandstand and a guitarist or keyboard player, or even another sax player, asks me what key a given tune is in, I'll use the concert key. I always speak in concert key when on the bandstand in order to avoid confusion.

On a sax website like this, you'll often get posters speaking in the sax key, but even here I'd suggest specifying that you are talking about the 'sax key' and which sax (alto, tenor, etc).

 

[Wildboy1983]

I started playing the alto Ammoon in March and I too felt that there was something wrong with the sound but put it down to being a new beginner. I played a Yamaha 4c with Rico 2 and it sounded shrill and buzzy. Changing the read to a vandoran helped a little but I recently decided to skip years of procrastination and buy a Yanigasawa aw01.

My first thought was OMG what have I done, I sound the same! But after a week or so it made a difference not just to the sound which became more silky, smooth and mellow but became more effortless and enjoyable to play like it was invisible compared to wrestling with punching keys like a typewriter on the old Ammoon. Upgrading has certainly made playing the sax more enjoyable and I wonder if I would still be doing it if I still had the old one. There's nothing really wrong with the Ammoon it's fantastic value for the money but if the frustration of punching the keys deliberately, chasing a sound that's out of reach is likely to kill you then I suggest upgrading to something that rewards you more.

The cost difference may be prohibitive but to anyone that is new and looking to play it's worth worth mentioning that I sold my Ammoon for almost half price in 2 months I owned it but the Yani shouldn't really depreciate.

 

[Johnvw]

Dear Wildboy 1983,
I seem to be following a similar path. Not happy with the high low and mid registers sound, according to pieces of music that I have heard. I know that I a very new to this, just too impatient.
I use an accurate iPad tuner and find with my ( rough ) scales, I drift flat going up and sharp coming back, so my embouchure is out of whack. I know the feeling of disappointment, I experienced this with the violin, but loved the sound and forged on. The Sop is a new experience and more practise and m/p and reed combination may result in a more pleasing sound.
A new Soprano, perhaps Yamaha or Yani for the future will be required, but at this time that is a big step when I need to get the best out of the Ammoon and ME to justify the expense.
I know the sound and the music that I wish to pursue, just too impatient.
Regards
John