[olds1959special]

My backstory: I am not quite a beginner but haven't picked up a tenor in a number of years. I played alto for while, quit playing and then recently started again and was experimenting with a C-melody for about a month before deciding to get a tenor. I ended up with a Yani T880 which I enjoy playing but I wish I could subtone the lowest notes better like I can on the C-mel. Of course, it's a much bigger horn so maybe my airstream needs work. I'm using a JodyJazz CHI in a 7 (.101) - a good mouthpiece but I don't like the effect the raised baffle has. I can't really push the air in the high notes without the sound thinning. (I considered trying to grind it down it but figure I'd better just get a different piece.) I'm wanting something that's hard rubber (or plastic) but not metal because it's more comfortable for me, and I'm considering a few options right now but I don't want to end up on an endless mouthpiece search. I have acquired another two mouthpieces recently that are OK but maybe a little too closed for me. They are both .95 and I feel this makes it even harder to subtone, or should I keep trying? I'm not looking for volume, just ease of playing. So I figure I need something around .100 without too much baffle in HR. A large chamber might be a good idea, so I'm looking at a Slant style piece, but a medium chamber piece is fine too. Any tips for me? These are the mouthpieces I have now:

Jody Jazz CHI 7, stock ligature .101
Meyer 7 refaced by Ralph Morgan .95
Morgan 7 stock .95

I like a Vandoren Masters ligature on the HR pieces.
I usually use Harry Hartmann fiber reeds in medium soft, I have had good results with the hemp, carbon, and carbon onyx.

Thanks for any suggestions!

 

[lydian]

I also have a T880. 115 is the sweet spot for me. Chamber size seems to make no difference. I can subtone on a Dukoff LD (gigantic chamber) as well as my Berg (tiny chamber). Baffle also doesn't matter much until it gets really high. For me subtoning on a Berg 0 baffle is harder than on a 1.

I can also tell you that subtone is harder for me on the Yani than on my MKVI. I have no logical explanation for that other than the fact I've been playing the VI for 40 years and the Yani for 40 days.

Also be aware that you need to be leak free on the low end. I know you've posted that your tech has gone over it. But it's really easy for the low keys to come out of adjustment.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I have acquired another two mouthpieces recently that are OK but maybe a little too closed for me. They are both .95 and I feel this makes it even harder to subtone, or should I keep trying? I'm not looking for volume, just ease of playing. So I figure I need something around .100 without too much baffle in HR. A large chamber might be a good idea, so I'm looking at a Slant style piece, but a medium chamber piece is fine too. Any tips for me? These are the mouthpieces I have now:

I always fancy wider tips with medium curve length which is an as important as the top opening when considering these things. ie you can't just talk about tip openings as an isolated parameter. length of curve and even type of curve can be crucial.

Highish baffles I find do not work too well without a corresponding wide tip 9as long as the curve isn't too long) - unless you want a very bright sound esp when pushing - you are correct in mentioning this as an issue - your Jody jazz maybe better in at least an 8*. I've always been a fan of bigger tips (without long curve) but you need to be able to deal with the practicalities of then using a softer reed which some people find harder.

 

[buddy lee]

You should be able to subtone on any piece, I'm confused.

 

[Pete Thomas]

You should be able to subtone on any piece, I'm confused.

I can't. Well.. I suppose I can but not realistically or effectively.

 

[swperry1]

You should be able to subtone on any piece, I'm confused.

Agreed.

 

[lydian]

I can't. Well.. I suppose I can but not realistically or effectively.

I'm with you Pete. While it's possible to subtone on just about any piece, it's much easier to do it well on some than on others. When I try out mouthpieces, that's one of my main criteria. If I can't get a good subtone, I don't buy the mouthpiece. I'm envious of those who can get a full, lush subtone on any piece. I'm just not built that way. I bet even Plas Johnson couldn't get the same subtone on a Selmer C* as he did on his main mouthpiece. The physics make it impossible.

 

[milandro]

I agree, although, in theory, it may be possible to subtone with any mouthpiece design (and I am sure that given time and patience one could work towards that end), I have adopted a slim design , a Brancher J27, with light reeds and that has given me the sound I looked for, which is a round subtone, I can there fore change from a warm to a bright sound in no time .

Having said that on alto (which is absolutely a forgotten child for me) I play on a Selmer S80 E and light reeds and I subtone with that set up too, I guess is because the size oof the two mouthpieces is similar.

Recently I sent my mouthpiece away for a couple of week and I had to replace it with something, so I used a Selmer S80 C** that I have and, albeit with reeds one size up, I wasn’t unhappy with the result, and it started growing on me.

So, once again, the equipment makes things easier but the player may adapt.

 

[MojoBari]

I use more lower lip damping on the reed to subtone. Maybe we all do but I’m not sure. This can be done by taking in less mouthpiece and relaxing your embouchure so that you do not close off the tip opening.

I mostly do something that may be strange. I rest the tip of my tongue on my lower lip which fattens it up without taking in less mouthpiece. I anchor tongue with a “D” articulation normally so I find both can be done at the same time.

 

[milandro]

interesting, I have read people dampen the sound with the tongue, but I’ve always just used the lower lip and if anything I think I take more mouthpiece than some

 

[MojoBari]

Yeah I have heard of half tonguing. Feels weird to me.

 

[Reet McVouty]

My backstory: I am not quite a beginner but haven't picked a tenor in a number of years. I played alto for while, quit playing and then recently started again and was experimenting with a C-melody for about a month before deciding to get a tenor. I ended up with a Yani T880 which I enjoy playing but I wish I could subtone the lowest notes better like I can on the C-mel. Of course, it's a much bigger horn so maybe my airstream needs work. I'm using a JodyJazz CHI in a 7 (.101) - a good mouthpiece but I don't like the effect the raised baffle has. I can't really push the air in the high notes without the sound thinning. (I considered trying to grind it down it but figure I'd better just get a different piece.) I'm wanting something that's hard rubber (or plastic) but not metal because it's more comfortable for me, and I'm considering a few options right now but I don't want to end up on an endless mouthpiece search. I have acquired another two mouthpieces recently that are OK but maybe a little too closed for me. They are both .95 and I feel this makes it even harder to subtone, or should I keep trying? I'm not looking for volume, just ease of playing. So I figure I need something around .100 without too much baffle in HR. A large chamber might be a good idea, so I'm looking at a Slant style piece, but a medium chamber piece is fine too. Any tips for me? These are the mouthpieces I have now:

Jody Jazz CHI 7, stock ligature .101
Meyer 7 refaced by Ralph Morgan .95
Morgan 7 stock .95

I like a Vandoren Masters ligature on the HR pieces.
I usually use Harry Hartmann fiber reeds in medium soft, I have had good results with the hemp, carbon, and carbon onyx.

Thanks for any suggestions!

Since I started playing 50 years ago by listening to and trying to play like Johnny Hodges, subtoning is a way of life for me. I started this at a young age and just worked toward that sound, no instruction, no technique. Just play until you get the sound you're after. My only advice is, get rid of the composite reeds your using and use real cane.

Also, under no circumstances grind down any mouthpiece. Leave that to a professional.

 

[lydian]

interesting, I have read people dampen the sound with the tongue, but I've always just used the lower lip and if anything I think I take more mouthpiece than some

Are you saying some people subtone with the tongue? I dampen the sound with the tongue all the time when ghosting notes, but never to get a subtone effect.

Or is there some sort of classical subtone that's different than a jazz subtone? To me, subtone is more than just soft, it's a different timbre altogether which can only be achieved by adjusting the embouchure, not with half tonguing.

This is how I ghost:

And this is how I subtone:

Both are very distinct techniques that get completely different results.

In any case, I strongly agree with Reet about the synthetics. But we've been down this road before and gotten nowhere. So I don't bother anymore.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Totally different things. I even put them in different sections. And you can hear sound examples showing the big difference.

Subtone is a common type of tone we can use so it goes under the general "tone" section:

https://tamingthesaxophone.com/saxophone-subtone

Dooden tonguing or ghost tonguing is classified as an effect

https://tamingthesaxophone.com/saxophone-dooden-tonguing

Am I splitting hairs?

No - because you can play all the time with subtone, many players do. But ghost tonguing you would not use all the time, so it's an effect to be used appropriately.

So please, these are very different things.

 

[olds1959special]

I also have a T880. 115 is the sweet spot for me. Chamber size seems to make no difference. I can subtone on a Dukoff LD (gigantic chamber) as well as my Berg (tiny chamber). Baffle also doesn't matter much until it gets really high. For me subtoning on a Berg 0 baffle is harder than on a 1.

I can also tell you that subtone is harder for me on the Yani than on my MKVI. I have no logical explanation for that other than the fact I've been playing the VI for 40 years and the Yani for 40 days.

Also be aware that you need to be leak free on the low end. I know you've posted that your tech has gone over it. But it's really easy for the low keys to come out of adjustment.

I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who finds the T880 a little resistant in the low end. Maybe from the larger bore that it has, compared with the Mark VI. Anyway, I decided to stop overthinking the equipment and return to the JJ mouthpiece to try to make things work. I got a chance to play last night and things felt good, I had to use a bit of air pressure down low and maybe not always subtone the note. So I'm happy for now and plan to keep using what I have. I doubt a new mouthpiece will make subtoning easier anyway, if the issue is the horn. Although I will try a really soft cane reed to see if that helps.

 

[Dr G]

My backstory: I am not quite a beginner but haven't picked a tenor in a number of years. I played alto for while, quit playing and then recently started again and was experimenting with a C-melody for about a month before deciding to get a tenor. I ended up with a Yani T880 which I enjoy playing but I wish I could subtone the lowest notes better like I can on the C-mel. Of course, it's a much bigger horn so maybe my airstream needs work. I'm using a JodyJazz CHI in a 7 (.101) - a good mouthpiece but I don't like the effect the raised baffle has. I can't really push the air in the high notes without the sound thinning. (I considered trying to grind it down it but figure I'd better just get a different piece.) I'm wanting something that's hard rubber (or plastic) but not metal because it's more comfortable for me, and I'm considering a few options right now but I don't want to end up on an endless mouthpiece search. I have acquired another two mouthpieces recently that are OK but maybe a little too closed for me. They are both .95 and I feel this makes it even harder to subtone, or should I keep trying? I'm not looking for volume, just ease of playing. So I figure I need something around .100 without too much baffle in HR. A large chamber might be a good idea, so I'm looking at a Slant style piece, but a medium chamber piece is fine too. Any tips for me? These are the mouthpieces I have now:

Jody Jazz CHI 7, stock ligature .101
Meyer 7 refaced by Ralph Morgan .95
Morgan 7 stock .95

I like a Vandoren Masters ligature on the HR pieces.
I usually use Harry Hartmann fiber reeds in medium soft, I have had good results with the hemp, carbon, and carbon onyx.

Thanks for any suggestions!

Of the pieces you already have, the Morgan should fill your needs well. There's really not that much difference between 0.095 and 0.100, so don't look to that for the solution.

Commit to one mouthpiece, and sort out the reed situation. I haven't played the HH reeds, so I cannot tell you which way to go there. I prefer cane, and would play a 3-3 1/2 as a starting place.

Learning to control/manipulate your airstream, while maintaining full support, is key to consistently predictable tone - whether sub tone or full sound in the upper register of your horn.

 

[buddy lee]

I just blow "slower" to subtone. I dunno. It's hard to explain but because I always had leaking horns growing up, I learned to play lower register by subtoning exclusively. So maybe that's why I can do it on C* and Dukoff D, etc.

 

[click]

My high school jazz director asked for this in passages, and we just did it.

As best I recall, he just said, "subtone this. Make it breathy-er" and that was it.

Made for cool soli section passages when appropriate, never thought anything about it.

Director would just say, "brash and brassy on that" "lemme hear cellos" "French horn this section" or whatever, same difference, and we were expected to make it.

We had section practices to get the sound together.

 

[skeller047]

Good advice so far. Couple points:

Subtone is (I think) when the reed doesn't actually completely seal against the mouthpiece on every vibration, so I like to think of blowing between the reed and the mouthpiece, rather than just blowing a note. It is a slower airstream for sure, and pulling the jaw back definitely helps.

Also, I completely support Reet McVouty's comment on using cane reeds. I've tried a few synthetics over the years, and they just don't have the same level (and variety) of response that a good cane reed does. I know lots of people really like them, but I don't and I'm an old fart and thus entitled to my opinion!!!

 

[olds1959special]

I tried a softer cane reed, a Java 2. I usually press the reed down against a flat surface, watching the tip, and compress the fibers with my fingernail or a knife. But the sound was so stuffy compared to the synthetic fiber reed (I'm using the hemp version right now.) I just couldn't deal with it. And I didn't feel there was any benefit to the subtoning. I think the subtoning ability may come with time and working on the airstream.