[Morph1590]

Hi guys,

Does anyone know what the difference is between the Berg Larsen Ebonite and Grained Ebonite mouthpieces?

I've read the information on their website but it's not clear (at least to me!). So, are these mouthpieces identical apart from the material they are made from? Or are they different designs?

I have a 100/2/SMS in grained ebonite which I like but I'm looking to replace with someone a little more open...if the designs are the same the ebonite (not grained) could be an option.

Thanks!

 

[Sigmund451]

Its cheaper to have your piece opened and you wont be subject to berg's frequently poor execution...my path would be to save money and end up with a superior product..

grained and black are pretty much the same.

 

[milandro]

grained ebonite is only a fancier look

 

[Morph1590]

Thanks all. I suspected the changes were only cosmetic but good to know!

I know there are different schools of thought, but I find it hard to believe the graining alone could affect the sound. They are both made from "Caoutchouc" so basic material is the same.

 

[Morph1590]

Its cheaper to have your piece opened and you wont be subject to berg's frequently poor execution...my path would be to save money and end up with a superior product..

grained and black are pretty much the same.

Thanks for the advice. That probably would be sensible, although I fond of the 100/2/SMS so reluctant to alter it. I'm not certain I will prefer a more open piece so would like to be able to compare against my 100 tip opening

 

[milandro]

the material is virtually the same , the only thing is that it is mixed with other colors to look nicer.

what makes the difference in anything is the shape and since it stays the same it will play” the same” ( minus the fact that every mouthpiece, like every saxophone , even if “ identical” play slightly differently because the tolerances are ampler than any modern industrial product . It that weren’t the case all you’d never need was one mouthpiece to try in a shop and then you order another , but that’s not the case.

 

[Morph1590]

Got it, thanks a lot.

I fired off a quick email to Berg Larsen yesterday night (before I'd received any replies here), their response confirms what you've both said:

"They are both the exact same design, and as you rightly mention, the only difference is the ebonite that they are made from, 1 is plain black and the other is grained ebonite with special mix of colours."

 

[Sigmund451]

If younreallyndig the original one you own then dont change it.

 

[-j.]

Got it, thanks a lot.

I fired off a quick email to Berg Larsen yesterday night (before I'd received any replies here), their response confirms what you've both said:

"They are both the exact same design, and as you rightly mention, the only difference is the ebonite that they are made from, 1 is plain black and the other is grained ebonite with special mix of colours."

Very curious why Berg would say this: maybe they changed their production line very recently?

I have two of each, and the beak on the grained ones is lower. The first grained one I got in 2010, a 100/2/M, which actually measures 105 according to my tech. (Yes, imagine that, a Berg that measures larger than it's stamped.....) It's one of the BEST mouthpieces I've ever played. When I moved to bigger-tipped mouthpieces a couple of years later, I got a 110/1/SMS in grained ebonite. Same duckbill-shaped beak, but the outer body is fatter: the Francois Louis ligature I'd gotten for the 100 doesn't fit the 110. Also, the 110 is MUCH darker, so much so that the wider tip alone can't possibly account for it. I greatly suspect it could benefit from a reface.

These differences can't be due to Berg's infamous QC, or the lack thereof; clearly, different molds must have been used.

Sound-wise, it's impossible for me to tell if there's a difference there, what with all that inconsistency. Also, both of my black Bergs I had refaced. They all have that typical Berg "grit," even the super-dark grained 110. It must have been, oh, 2002 or 2003 when I purchased my first black Berg, a 85/1/SMS. The second one, a 110/1/SMS, I got maybe 3, 4 years ago here on SOTW; the seller told me he had only played it for 12 months or so. This one I also had refaced, but neither reface involved the beak.

Don't rightly know what the moral of my story is: we all knew already one can't believe what is stamped on the shank of any Berg -- now one can't believe what the factory is saying.....??? Or maybe they just pour the different ebonites into the molds randomly....

-j.

 

[turf3]

Different molds with different shapes, caused by one or more of: Weak QC at the moldmaker; weak incoming parts first article inspection at Berg; poor documentation on the drawings, allowing a mold maker to introduce variation.

 

[Sigmund451]

Beaks are usually cut after the molding process. Because of this they can vary.

Also, Berg seems to change things around all the time...maybe molds are inconsistent...I dont know. But I do know that there are a lot of variations of bergs. I cannot say if it is intentional or not.

 

[Tzadik]

Marbled hard rubber is significantly softer than the black hard rubber.
Same for "coloured" hard rubber (do you remember the blue and red Vandoren's)?
But now the problem is... what kind of black hard rubber?

Not all the compound have the same specs.

 

[Dr G]

Marbled hard rubber is significantly softer than the black hard rubber.
Same for "coloured" hard rubber (do you remember the blue and red Vandoren's)?
But now the problem is... what kind of black hard rubber?

Not all the compound have the same specs.

Not only does chemical composition matter, but also the processing. It is entirely possible to have black rubber that is softer than marbled. Perhaps of more importance, the elastic modulus (stiffness) will vary with composition and processing.

 

[Tzadik]

It is entirely possible to have black rubber that is softer than marbled.

That's it.

In short, the more vulcanized the (soon to be) hard rubber is, the harder is.

Think... hard rubber rods (some people like Selmer or Vandoren) are harder than the hard rubber of modern JJ Babbitt products (which are casted).
But it's plenty of cases.

If you have a fine sense of smell, you can notice the smell of sulphur on the hard rubber.
Some pieces smell more than others.

----------
Deep finishing and QC on Berg Larsen is poor... for what I've seen, marbled ones are somewhat better made than the black ones.
Personal statistics... hard to be general.

 

[turf3]

Apply a durometer to different pieces and then we can talk. Till then? Just speculation.

 

[Dr G]

Apply a durometer to different pieces and then we can talk. Till then? Just speculation.

The effects of composition and processing are far beyond speculation.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/materials-science/vulcanization

 

[Benjamin Allen]

The effects of composition and processing are far beyond speculation.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/materials-science/vulcanization

Bringing science into the discussion is so uncalled for and unfair . . . now back to the anecdotal and non-empirically based stuff, please.:blah5:

 

[Dr G]

Bringing science into the discussion is so uncalled for and unfair . . . now back to the anecdotal and non-empirically based stuff, please.:blah5:

You're spot on, Ben. It has lead to a great many discussions (and members) getting terminated. I'll try to keep it to a minimum. :bluewink:

 

[turf3]

Yes, I understand the process of vulcanization. Yes, the longer the rubber is subjected to the process, the more cross-linking occurs and the harder the material will be. I expect that like all chemical reactions the rate of cross-linking is also related to reaction temperature and the concentration of sulfur in the atmosphere surrounding the rubber part.

Thank you, Materials Science 201, ca. 1981.

However, a general statement like that, does not tell us whether the specific multicolored ebonite used by Berg Larsen is harder or softer than the specific black ebonite used by Berg Larsen. Hence my statement "in God we trust, all others bring data". Even an anecdotal account like "Hi, I'm so and so and as a professional refacer I've worked on dozens of each, and the grained ones seem [harder, softer, about the same] as the black ones" is of considerable value.

 

[Dr G]

Yes, I understand the process of vulcanization. Yes, the longer the rubber is subjected to the process, the more cross-linking occurs and the harder the material will be. I expect that like all chemical reactions the rate of cross-linking is also related to reaction temperature and the concentration of sulfur in the atmosphere surrounding the rubber part.

Thank you, Materials Science 201, ca. 1981.

However, a general statement like that, does not tell us whether the specific multicolored ebonite used by Berg Larsen is harder or softer than the specific black ebonite used by Berg Larsen. Hence my statement "in God we trust, all others bring data". Even an anecdotal account like "Hi, I'm so and so and as a professional refacer I've worked on dozens of each, and the grained ones seem [harder, softer, about the same] as the black ones" is of considerable value.

Why so dismissive, Turf? You throw out statements to a general audience that doesn't share our background - I'm trying to help people better understand the science that we embrace.

Please tell us about Engineering 10, and discuss the variability in a sample population. The durometer of a specimen in a batch of this stuff is hardly a single value. Seems "harder, softer..." is hardly anywhere close to good data.

I agree that durometer testing would be interesting. It would be insightful to learn how much hard rubber hardens due to aging and environmental exposure as well. That might add some merit to the observation that old HR is "better" than new - it could have been exactly the same when manufactured, then "ripened" with time.