Sax on the Web Forum banner

1 - 16 of 16 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,305 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Trying to sort out some confusion with a new horn. Can anyone confirm the correct tenon diameter and/or socket ID for a MK VI bari?
thanks:)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
725 Posts
The low A 1978 mark vi bari I have here measures 22.0mm
 

·
Distinguished Technician & SOTW Columnist. RIP, Yo
Joined
·
17,204 Posts
Just a comment... The fit of a tenon in a socket needs to be far more accurate than a tenth of a mm - at least 10 times more accurate.
Also, it is common for a tech to modify the tenon diameter to make a good fit.
And I am quite sure that if sockets get a hiding they can change diameter.

Why are you asking about the size?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,305 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Just a comment... The fit of a tenon in a socket needs to be far more accurate than a tenth of a mm - at least 10 times more accurate.
Also, it is common for a tech to modify the tenon diameter to make a good fit.
And I am quite sure that if sockets get a hiding they can change diameter.

Why are you asking about the size?
I need to replace the neck socket on a just-acquired horn. Socket has a tear and is out of round; my tech is going to make it workable but I'd like to replace it.

I have an NOS socket for a VI but it is too small for the neck. Not certain neck is stock - it looks like a VI neck with an SIII brace along the underside. Trying to ascertain whether I need to find a different neck or a different socket.

The existing neck tenon OD = 22.5 mm
The NOS socket ID = 22.4 mm

My tech feels we need a larger socket and prefers not to reduce the neck tenon diameter by that amount.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,305 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
p.s. Gordon, .1 mm is about .004 inches. I would think .001" would be a very good tolerance, no?
p.p.s. thx:)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,305 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Mine is 22.42mm, for the tenon. SN 118XXX, a 1964 low Bb and after market Silver Plated.

Peter.
Thanks Peter and 400VI62. Those are reasonably similar measurements and would be very close to my NOS socket size.
So I'm wondering if my neck tenon is on the large size, at 22.5mm. Stuffed into the damaged socket it plays well though...

Selmer Paris says an SII neck should work. That somewhat infers that they all should share tenon dimensions.
 

·
Distinguished Technician & SOTW Columnist. RIP, Yo
Joined
·
17,204 Posts
p.s. Gordon, .1 mm is about .004 inches. I would think .001" would be a very good tolerance, no?
p.p.s. thx:)

A typical "feeler" for checking the sealing of flute pads is 0.02mm thick. If I could fit that feeler in a tenon joint that is meant to seal, I would consider it a substantial leak.
When testing for flute leaks we use such a feeler not to feel a gap so big that the feeler would slide out without resistance. That would be a large leak. What we detect is a difference in resistance as we draw out the feeler in different locations around the pad, or between linked pads That represents a considerably closer tolerance than 0.02mm. (Some technicians may not work to this sort of standard but I think most would. Some technicians use a 0.01mm feeler.)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,305 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
A typical "feeler" for checking the sealing of flute pads is 0.02mm thick. If I could fit that feeler in a tenon joint that is meant to seal, I would consider it a substantial leak.
When testing for flute leaks we use such a feeler not to feel a gap so big that the feeler would slide out without resistance. That would be a large leak. What we detect is a difference in resistance as we draw out the feeler in different locations around the pad, or between linked pads That represents a considerably closer tolerance than 0.02mm. (Some technicians may not work to this sort of standard but I think most would. Some technicians use a 0.01mm feeler.)
Good to know. So .02 mm would be a bit under .001" and half of that would be pretty small:) I don't think any feeler gauge sets I've had went below 1 mil (.001"). Cars, motorcycles 'n such. In those cases it's more often you're looking for a gap of a specific size rather than the lack of one... Thx:)
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member
TENOR, soprano, alto, baritone
Joined
·
7,975 Posts
If you know you have the correct new clamp collar, go with that and be creative in finding the right neck. I just saw a Selmer MK VI bari neck on ebay, for example, but if you can find another MK VI bari owner in your locale, he probably would let you bring your bari over and try it with his neck. Then you would know for sure what you need. But if you go with a larger collar to fit the larger neck, you are changing the sax in unpredictable ways.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,305 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
If you know you have the correct new clamp collar, go with that and be creative in finding the right neck. I just saw a Selmer MK VI bari neck on ebay, for example, but if you can find another MK VI bari owner in your locale, he probably would let you bring your bari over and try it with his neck. Then you would know for sure what you need. But if you go with a larger collar to fit the larger neck, you are changing the sax in unpredictable ways.
I'll check ebay - thanks. New SII and SIII necks are only $170. and Selmer recommends that option so that's a possibility as well. I was thinking about getting maybe an SIII neck, plus a new tenon and receiver such that they all match and coule have two interchangeable necks to compare...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,305 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
If you know you have the correct new clamp collar, go with that and be creative in finding the right neck. I just saw a Selmer MK VI bari neck on ebay, for example, but if you can find another MK VI bari owner in your locale, he probably would let you bring your bari over and try it with his neck. Then you would know for sure what you need. But if you go with a larger collar to fit the larger neck, you are changing the sax in unpredictable ways.
What I've learned in this thread is that most tenons are substantially smaller than the one I have. So I suspect what I have is not a stock tenon. Whether or not it's a stock neck is not truly known. It looks the part except for a brace that I've not seen anywhere else. Although it looks similar to the brace on SIII necks.
 

·
Distinguished Technician & SOTW Columnist. RIP, Yo
Joined
·
17,204 Posts
Perhaps the socket had an accident or serious wear, and after straightening, it was larger diameter, so the stock item head had the tenon stretched larger.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,305 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Perhaps the socket had an accident or serious wear, and after straightening, it was larger diameter, so the stock item head had the tenon stretched larger.
I agree, something odd like that. The fact that the neck is sporting a brace on the underside adds to the potential evidence, although there's no other indication of neck damage. No lacquer on the neck at all btw. Perhaps also could be a larger tenon fitted to the original neck. The socket has a tear leading from the screw thread area, about 1/4" long, and is distorted/ovaled visibly. Tear kind of looks like age/use stress, but does that happen often? Haven't seen it on my horns but I've owned fewer than a dozen or so.
 
1 - 16 of 16 Posts
Top