[Atratr]

Hello,
my first steps recording here. I am ocassionally recording in my home booth, very dry sound. Gear i use: Macbook wih Logic and Blue Yeti usb mic.
Would like to hear from experienced players about mixing the signal on Logic and how to setup different effects needed for a good recording.
Until now my first recordings sounded really...dry...so..until yesterday that i started using reverb, delay, equalization and compression i was not very happy with the results. But now i would like to learn to use the effects conveniently.
So what are the best literature or sources for learning?
I would like to be capable of emulating different situations, for example, for a rock solo, or an acoustic more natural sound, whatever...
Also don´t know much about all the parameters and knobs each effect have for tweaking.
So any kind of help is welcome!

 

[Roundmidnite]

I soooo understand your situation. I took a mixing class from Berklee and still have trouble. We had to mix drums, vocals and all that, too so the whole thing is a lot harder than I think people realize- I guess that's why there are people who just do mixing for a living! A lot of people say just to listen to reference tracks- especially really well done, respected references like Steely Dan.

 

[Atratr]

Thanks Roundmidnite,
Yes, maybe listening to good mixes is good advice.
In general i am not very picky but i am surprised by how much fine tuning some things on Logic affect the result, going from a 'well...that´s me trying to solo, i need to practice' to 'umm! Not bad, that idea sounded really good and seems like the sax blends better with the rest of the band, let´s compose something!'
I am thinking of recording also practice sessions or concrete exercises to self critic and improve, so not much effects in that case..
But i am also thinking of simulating an acoustic trio or quartet thing.
With recording possibilities i also feel motivated and inspired to compose, which is also a pending subject for me.

 

[1saxman]

Trial and error is how you find out what kind of effects you like.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I've been using Logic and its forerunners for about 30 years now, mostly my current work is in TV and film music.

The main things you'll need for a good natural sounding mix are reverb and compression. Although some people think compression is bad, it's usually because they have heard it overdone or done badly. Compression is often crucial to getting a mix to hang together. The secret is to iron out excessive dynamics, but note the word excessive. An alternative is often to even out dynamics using the volume automation on each track. I do this by inserting a gain plugin on the tracks I want to automate and use that. (You can automate the channelstrip faders, but then it becomes a bit more complex because you may need to adjust the entire level of one track, and if the fader is automated that will override any adjustments you make to the fader itself.

For reverb I like to use a short (< 1sec) ambient room on just about everything - especially when recorded totally dry (close miked in a dead room). This shouldn't actually sound like reverb - it just seems to bind everything and put them (literally) in the same room. very useful if you also have MIDI sounds or backing tracks/loops.

I then add some actually reverb on selected instruments ((often a natural sounding hall or a plate, 2 - 3 seconds) This has to be done to taste. Often I don't want to actually hear the reverb, but all depends on style. So I might add it, then if I hear it I back it off slightly. But some genres may need more reverb.

I never add reverb on a channel strip insert, I always have my two reverbs set up on busses, then use track sends to add it as required This way you have much more control over how everything interacts and sounds like a band even when it's a bunch of overdubs.

See this article here: https://mediamusicforum.com/recording-reverb

For EQ, I tend to avoid the parametric EQ if I can use filtters instead. Often a high or low pass filter will iron out a lot of issues. I'll rarely use EQ as an effect, to me it's more about the literal meaning of the word, ie to equalise, which originally meant to make the recorded or broadcast sound equal to the perceived acuostic sound of the instrument.

 

[jman1977]

Not sure if you';re willing to spend or what your budget is, but here are the most useful basic paid plugins I use (the free Logic plugins are adequate/good enough, but these take it to a different level):

1) Fab Filter Pro Q3 (can get in the second hand market for $75-$100) - excellent for surgical EQ. I only ever use EQ to cut offensive frequencies by a few DB';s (harshness, honk) and never boost. The best thing about this EQ is that it';s multi-band and you can actually solo specific pinpoint frequency ranges (create a notch filter and boost it temporarily then click on the solo icon to hear what that frequency sounds like — you can sweep through the entire spectrum and indenting where the offensive frequencies are and cut accordingly). You can have as many notches as you want and make each band as narrow or as wide as you want. You can also create general high or low pass filters.

2) Softube Summit Audio TLA-100A compressor (can get on sale for $70). I agree with Pete that compression done tastefully is key. This compressor is very simple and straightforward but very effective. Basically, there are very few knobs, and the only ones that I really use are gain reduction and make-up gain and fast/slow attack and fast/slow release. That';s it.

3). Softube TSAR-1 reverb (around $35 on the secondhand market). Extensive array of hall/room reverbs. I also agree with Pete that unless the genre calls for it, I set the reverb so that once I start hearing the reverb, I back off. Too much reverb makes your mix muddy. I also place reverb in an aux channel and not directly on the channel strip. I usually send all channels strips to the same reverb aux channel so everything sounds like they';re in the same place, if that makes sense.

I will also use delays and plate reverbs and tape plugins, as well as some EQ and compression on the master bus to glue everything together, but the basic ones are really all you need to start with.

I have to say though, GAS is very real in the plugin world as it is in the general sax world. I now have almost 200 plugins (do violin and vocal recordings, too, but mainly for personal/family and friends’ consumption), although I only ever use 8-10.

EDIT: forgot to mention one plugin that is very, very useful for mixing and mastering. Plugin Alliance';s Metric A/B. Basically, you upload a reference track (a WAV file of a song that you like your recording to sound like) into the plugin and you can either manually or automatically adjust your mix';s parameters to match those of the reference track until you get the same sound. Very, very useful. PA usually runs sales where you can get plugins for as low as $29.

Also, depending on how your recording room sounds, you may want to put some acoustic panels in there. My room sounds pretty bad, so I had to completely deaden it. I have acoustic panels on the walls and in the ceiling directly above where I record and also have portable acoustic panel walls behind me and behind the mic.

 

[Atratr]

Thanks Pete and jman1977(is that your year of birth? mine too).
Still don´t know to work with channel strip, buses or track sends....need to learn the Logic interface and the terms and vocabulary.
As for plugins, thanks for pointing those out jman, however i don´t need another gas risk field haha. Good to know about plugins anyway, who knows what i would need in the end.
A friend of mine recommended me to get an interface and a mic for a better, more natural sound caption too.
Would need to sell a mouthpiece or two and do some gigs...ups, no gigs in the short future.

 

[Pete Thomas]

A friend of mine recommended me to get an interface and a mic for a better, more natural sound caption too.

Oh wow yes, those are basics.

I do respectfully disagree with jman1977, I'd say these days there is no real need for 3rd party plugins now that the Logic ones are so good. Don't just take my word for it, quite a few visiting engineers to my studio are quite surprised when we start delving into the Logic native effects. (And I also have some expensive 3rd party stuff to compare to).

But as with mouthpieces, learn the basics of what you have, and when you truly know from experience what is inadequate there for your own needs, then start shopping around.

Also, as with mouthpieces, recommendations and reviews are usually subjective. Mind you I am biased as I helped to develop some of the early Logic stuff.

Still don´t know to work with channel strip, buses or track sends....need to learn the Logic interface and the terms and vocabulary.

Contact me via my contact form at https://tamingthesaxophone.com/contact I will be happy to send you over my starter Logic template which you can try out with very basic tracks, will probably be better than trying to explain it here.

EDIT: forgot to mention one plugin that is very, very useful for mixing and mastering. Plugin Alliance';s Metric A/B. Basically, you upload a reference track (a WAV file of a song that you like your recording to sound like) into the plugin and you can either manually or automatically adjust your mix';s parameters to match those of the reference track until you get the same sound. Very, very useful.

Isn't that basically what Logic Match EQ does?

 

[jman1977]

Oh wow yes, those are basics.

I do respectfully disagree with jman1977, I'd say these days there is no real need for 3rd party plugins now that the Logic ones are so good. Don't just take my word for it, quite a few visiting engineers to my studio are quite surprised when we start delving into the Logic native effects. (And I also have some expensive 3rd party stuff to compare to).

But as with mouthpieces, learn the basics of what you have, and when you truly know from experience what is inadequate there for your own needs, then start shopping around.

Also, as with mouthpieces, recommendations and reviews are usually subjective. Mind you I am biased as I helped to develop some of the early Logic stuff.

Contact me via my contact form at https://tamingthesaxophone.com/contact I will be happy to send you over my starter Logic template which you can try out with very basic tracks, will probably be better than trying to explain it here.

Isn't that basically what Logic Match EQ does?

As I wrote in my post, Logic plugins are good enough, especially if one is just starting out. However, there is no denying that boutique plugins are superior in that they are more specialized and have very useful features that Logic won't give you.

For instance, I don't think Logic EQ plugins (or any other plugin that I'm aware of for that matter) give you the ability to perform super surgical EQ adjustment by graphically and sonically sweeping through and isolating specific frequencies and soloing them to hear what they sound like so you can make the appropriate adjustments. You can actually hear what just the 300, 1200 or 4,000 hz frequencies (or any wider band you can specify as you narrow or widen the Q) in your track sound like. You can sweep to any specific point in the frequency spectrum (you just drag the notch you created left to right and back and forth in the graph and it plays just the specific frequency at each particular point) and create as many points (to cut or boost -- I only cut) as you want. You can cut or boost any frequency or frequency range simply by dragging the notch you created up or down in the graph. That feature by itself cuts a significant amount of time from the workflow. Surgical EQ is crucial because you want to make sure you're only touching the frequencies that actually have problems and not altering any frequency that's fine as is (unless your actual intent is to color the track using EQ). It has several other great features as well, including very specific dynamic EQ presets (e.g., for wind instruments, reduce embouchure blow sound, reduce reed raspiness, etc.).

Another example is Melodyne for pitch/tempo correction and other sonic edits. Logic has a decent enough feature for that, but the transparency you get from Melodyne (you can't even tell you made any such corrections) is significantly superior.

I don't know Logic Match EQ's capabilities as I've never used it, but I know that with Metric A/B I can load and play up to 16 reference tracks simultaneously with my track and can get up to five simultaneous types of analysis going on (including stereo imaging and correlation/phasing).

It's not that different from sax gear. You'd probably be fine starting out with and even sticking with a stock Meyer mouthpiece, but you definitely get more from boutique mouthpieces.

 

[Atratr]

Oh wow yes, those are basics.

I do respectfully disagree with jman1977, I'd say these days there is no real need for 3rd party plugins now that the Logic ones are so good. Don't just take my word for it, quite a few visiting engineers to my studio are quite surprised when we start delving into the Logic native effects. (And I also have some expensive 3rd party stuff to compare to).

But as with mouthpieces, learn the basics of what you have, and when you truly know from experience what is inadequate there for your own needs, then start shopping around.

Also, as with mouthpieces, recommendations and reviews are usually subjective. Mind you I am biased as I helped to develop some of the early Logic stuff.

Contact me via my contact form at https://tamingthesaxophone.com/contact I will be happy to send you over my starter Logic template which you can try out with very basic tracks, will probably be better than trying to explain it here.

Isn't that basically what Logic Match EQ does?

Very kind of you Pete! I will contact you asap.

 

[rzzzzz]

1. Listen to Pete. He knows of what he speaks.

2. probably you've been well warned of keeping your recording level below -6db. at least. no problem cleanly raising the volume on something recorded a little too soft. but nothing will fix the ugly distortion of a recorded signal that clips into the red.

3. no law against having some fun. you can try recording in a room with good natural reverb. (Or something extreme like a parking garage.) Of course, you're stuck with whatever reverb you get with that, so ultimately you're right to rely on serious takes in a well prepared room that minimizes sound reflection to get a real dry recording. and add the reverb or delay later.

4. a lot of discussion about sample rates and bit depth. no one is going to criticize 44.1 kHz 24 bit. a lot of conversations about Nyquist frequency and alias. a lot of experienced folks like 48, the video standard. i want to think that 88.2 and 96 make the digital filters sound better, etc., but i really don't know.

i use Logic 9 express for dry recordings, cause i'm too cheap and lazy to change what has been working for me a long time. when i bounce these to audio files i'm tempted to normalizing them, which a good producer will tell you not to do. they like to gain stage the sound levels, and that's probably correct. i'm just lazy, and figure if i'm careful about not clipping, why not. i then import these files into another DAW that has a nice mixing board layout with the compression and eq controls and mix buses "built in". lends itself well to adding the same amount of reverb-delay to multiple instruments, tying them together like they were all recorded in the same room at the same time. but that's really doing nothing different than what you'd end up doing on other DAWs like the great Logic X.

 

[jman1977]

lends itself well to adding the same amount of reverb-delay to multiple instruments, tying them together like they were all recorded in the same room at the same time.

As a general rule you shouldn't be adding reverb and/or delay to multiple instruments. You set up one reverb bus and/or one delay bus, and then you send the individual tracks to the appropriate bus. Typically you would have a group bus for each group of instruments (e.g., all keyboards, all drums, all guitars) that goes between the individual tracks and the master bus. You would then mix/adjust each instrument's/instrument group's reverb/delay levels on the send knobs in each track.

 

[rzzzzz]

As a general rule you shouldn't be adding reverb and/or delay to multiple instruments. You set up one reverb bus and/or one delay bus, and then you send the individual tracks to the appropriate bus. Typically you would have a group bus for each group of instruments (e.g., all keyboards, all drums, all guitars) that goes between the individual tracks and the master bus. You would then mix/adjust each instrument's/instrument group's reverb/delay levels on the send knobs in each track.

that's one reason i use the Harrison MixBus DAW. it lays Mix Buses right out on the mixer and you merely dial in however much signal you want from any instrument for the particular effect you put into same.

 

[jman1977]

that's one reason i use the Harrison MixBus DAW. it lays Mix Buses right out on the mixer and you merely dial in however much signal you want from any instrument for the particular effect you put into same.

I've heard great things about the Harrison and have been curious about it. Up until recently, Logic has been great for me (still is) as I always just used pre-made backing tracks so I only needed 2 channels (one for the track and one for the instrument/vocal). But I've started to make my own backing tracks, so having organized tracks and channels have become more valuable (Logic's mixer view mode is good enough for now).

Universal Audio (I use an Apollo X8 and X4 as my interfaces and own almost all their plugins) has also recently come out with its own DAW (Luna) which features Neve summing and other creator tools built in, but I'm sticking with Logic for the foreseeable future (can't be bothered to face another steep learning curve at this point).

 

[JCBigler]

You should be fine for the time being with your Blue Yeti mic. As you get better at recording and mixing, you'll find that you want a separate audio interface and better mic. But learn with what you have first.

You'll need to learn the proper signal path for your effects and plugins.

But I would recommend first working with just the EQ on the track. Change the settings and learn what each one does and how it affects the sound of your recording. 90% of my mixing I do with the EQ on the channel strip before I ever get to adding reverb or compression, or other effects. Learn what each one of the controls on a parametric EQ does and how to use them. Then do the same with compression. Then do the same with reverb, delay, other effects.

For time based effects like reverb and delay you absolutely should put those effects on a separate channel and use an AUX or BUS send to send your dry signal to the effect channel, then you can raise the fader for he effect and "mix" them together. (That's what it's called mixing).

Don't get caught up in chasing plugins. I have thousands, including the Waves Mercury bundle. And even today I only use about 4 or 5 of the same plugins on everything I do. If you were to invest in one good plugin outside of your stock plugins, I would recommend the Metric Halo Channel Strip. I use it on every channel in every recording project I do, from blues bands to symphony orchestras. I can't recommend it enough. I use Protools not Logic, so I don't know what they are including for stock reverbs. But the reverb that I really love these days is the Exponential Audio Pheonix or R2.

(Pheonix is on sale at Audio Deluxe for only $9.99 right now, btw: https://www.audiodeluxe.com/products/audio-plug-ins/exponential-audio-phoenixverb )

 

[Roundmidnite]

With recording possibilities i also feel motivated and inspired to compose, which is also a pending subject for me.

Me too! I'm moving into a house this week which has a space the last owners made into a small studio with acoustic treatment and everything, so I can't wait to dig in!

 

[HeavyWeather77]

Pete's advice is solid across the board. I also completely agree with him that you can do everything you need with stock plugins in Logic, and there's no better place to learn. (I have thousands of dollars' worth of plugins but still regularly use many that come with Logic, they're quite good and very user-friendly.)

I would add that mixing and plugins can't fundamentally change the nature of a recording, and the recording capture is by far the most important part of the process. The player is most important, followed by the room, followed by the microphone and other gear involved. If you have a treated room, you'll get a lot out of upgrading your microphone and interface. If you can swing a few hundred bucks (tough in these times, I know), I'd recommend getting a basic decent interface like a Steinberg UR22 and basic decent condenser microphone like an Audio-Technica AT4040 or 4033.

If we're just working with the gear you have at the moment, though, you can probably do a lot. For reverb, play around with Logic's "Chromaverb" plugin, it's actually quite good-sounding. I sometimes use it instead of more expensive reverbs because it's intuitive and very pleasant. For compression, Logic's stock compressor is actually excellent and has some useful presets that you can scroll through to hear its various capabilities. As Pete mentioned, subtle use of compression will be best, but it can be enlightening to really slam it so you can clearly hear what it does.

For in-depth mixing advice in Logic, I really like "MusicTechHelpGuy" on YouTube. He's very articulate and clear.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Very kind of you Pete! I will contact you asap.

Have sent my very simple startup template

You will see there are two tracks, an audio track and an instrument track. Each has its main output going to stereo mix, but they also each have a bus send (the rotary knobs control the amount sent to the reverb)

Bus 1 is the small room, bus 2 is the plate reverb. (Both of those are 100% wet effect) Then each of those reverb goes to the main outputs, where they are mixed back in with the dry signal.

Actually mine is just very slightly more complex as instead of everything going to stereo oue, the outputrs (of dry tracks and reverb buses) go to an aux which then goes to the stereo out.

But for now, the one I sent should get you going

 

[jman1977]

Another point on reverbs/delays: it's good practice to place a low cut filter (done with an EQ plugin) before the reverb (some reverb plugins have built-in low cut filters). I usually place the filter at around 100-125 hz. And as Pete indicated, reverbs on aux buses should always be set to 100% wet. The actual mixing of reverb/delay levels is done in the send bus of each track.

 

[jman1977]

Another point on reverbs/delays: it's good practice to place a low cut filter (done with an EQ plugin) before the reverb (many reverb plugins have built-in low cut filters). I usually place the filter at around 100-125 hz. And as Pete indicated, reverbs on aux buses should always be set to 100% wet. The actual mixing of reverb/delay levels is done in the send fader of each track.