[Dog Pants]

G'day all,

Just got in from a jazz workshop and I'm seriously considering trading the horn in for a good home brew kit, I'm that depressed

We were learning how to analyze tunes, come up a melodic and harmonic map, and then solo over the tune in various keys.
Tonight's tune was "Fly me to the moon." Play the head, blow for a chorus, move up a half step, rinse and repeat through the keys. Tempos were about 130-ish.

We are learning the songs using solfege. I've always used numbers rather than syllables and I struggle to translate "la" "so" "si" "re" etc, into the correct notes of the scale.

I struggled.

Badly.

I played sadder "than a broke Richard dog."

I'll admit to abandoning everything and just faking my way by ear. I just plain struggle with learning a tune this way, although I'll admit that the method works well, if I'm given enough time. Folks that grew up with solfege would find it all easy I guess.

Worse than that,....and this hurts,....the experienced pro who is running the workshop, told me to "lose the vibrato."

Vibrato?

Me?

It's like your girlfriend telling you she's pregnant. Why not just hand me a noose?

Maybe I was just playing timidly and shaking??? I hope so, because if I have a vibrato, I'm totally unaware of it. Which means I'm screwed.

 

[Saxplayer67]

Lose the vibrato? Vibrato makes a sax sing, which is what I often emulate - a singer. He seems like a knob, this mush - or like my violin teacher, who didn't want any vibrato, ever.

 

[sycc]

Not all of us are Gerry Mulligans or Stan Getzs. And what's hard for some comes easy to others. Once you learn solfege you will really know it. Sometimes if you have trouble learning something,and you do finally learn it it sticks. As for your sound(supposed vibrato) everybody likes differant things.Pepper Adams sounds alot differant than Serge Chaloff(very wide vibrato) as Mulligan differs in tonal concept from Pepper and Serge. There wouldn't be so many differant sax players out there if we all liked the same thing. Just try to have fun w/ your sax. That's what it's all about.
'

 

[Dog Pants]

Lose the vibrato? Vibrato makes a sax sing, which is what I often emulate - a singer. He seems like a knob, this mush - or like my violin teacher, who didn't want any vibrato, ever.

He's no knob. Nor a mush. He's an experienced (30 years) pro player and teacher. Most of the pro players I've ever met, frown on too much, or too frequent, a vibrato, as being "old school."

The reason I'm so depressed, is that I fully agree with him. I hate listening to players who overdo the vibrato.

And now I'm one of 'em.

 

[playitfunky]

when i get nervous i sometimes get a shaky vibrato thing happening. It's one of those things I try and think about so I don't do. A good way to whip that habit is to eliminate all vibrato for a week or so. Then try and get back to a good vibrato, not to fast, nice and thick, not shaky etc. Also listen to great players vibratos and try to emulate their speed and depth. Also listen to when they use the vibrato etc etc.

 

[JimD]

I once had somebody keep telling me 'no vibrato' when I wasn't playing with any, when I do I know it and it sounds different. I've never figured out why he kept giving me the evil eye, maybe I always play with a tiny bit of vibrato, maybe it just sounds that way, maybe I've got the DTs. If my non-vibrato playing sounds like vibrato imagine what it's like when I turn on the vibrato switch. Nobody else has said it to me, probably nobody else cares. This guy was both a knob and a mush though and vibrato or no vibrato it was a rotten arrangement.

 

[wersax]

Adding Solfege to the mix is silly, IMHO; #'d scale degrees work just as well. I did group improv workshops 30 years ago and never encountered solfege. Good grief!
As far as the vibrato is concerned, do yourself a big favor: record yourself playing. Make it 10-15 minutes or more, so you get sufficiently warmed up and less self-conscious, (about the vibrato), and then listen. If you hear the vibrato that your instructor referred to, and you don't like it, get rid of it. This will prove to be somewhat of a challenge; you'll have to practice playing with no vibrato everyday and be very deliberate about it.

 

[Dave Wright]

Fly me to the moon is ' old school ' .

Put it down to character building. Its good to know melodies by the degree of the scale and to know all your major scales equally. I'd say ' solfege ' was a bit ' old school ' ....I can't help thinking Von Trappes

 

[RootyTootoot]

Hey DP. Just spend half an hour or so meditating on that avatar of yours. That should cheer you up and put things in perspective.

"Numbers" is how i'd think if i was working a tune through keys by ear. Sol-fa is a bit "old school" IMHO but there are useful "teach yourself" books out there if you think it's something you need to know about. It's useful but I bet you'd find tons of pros who couldn't use the sol-fa system. Criticising someone's vibrato is a bit like criticising someone's tuning (just not as bad as being told you're out of tune). IT HURTS to be on the receiving end of that kind of remark.!! But if he was someone you respect then it's something you need to take seriously, I think. On the plus side, it's something that you can work on. Look on the bright side. Worse would have been: "Look, man, you just don't have a swingin bone in your body, do ya??!!"

I am looking in my crystal ball and i see LOOOOOOONG TOOOOOOOONES as far as the ear can hear!!! What fun!!

Re Richie: you've seen this one?
http://www.myspace.com/the12thmanbillybirmingham

 

[wersax]

Hey DP. Just spend half an hour or so meditating on that avatar of yours. That should cheer you up and put things in perspective.

"Numbers" is how i'd think if i was working a tune through keys by ear. Sol-fa is a bit "old school" IMHO but there are useful "teach yourself" books out there if you think it's something you need to know about. It's useful but I bet you'd find tons of pros who couldn't use the sol-fa system. Criticising someone's vibrato is a bit like criticising someone's tuning (just not as bad as being told you're out of tune). IT HURTS to be on the receiving end of that kind of remark.!! But if he was someone you respect then it's something you need to take seriously, I think. On the plus side, it's something that you can work on. Look on the bright side. Worse would have been: "Look, man, you just don't have a swingin bone in your body, do ya??!!"

I am looking in my crystal ball and i see LOOOOOOONG TOOOOOOOONES as far as the ear can hear!!! What fun!!

Re Richie: you've seen this one?
http://www.myspace.com/the12thmanbillybirmingham

Long tones with "terraced dynamics". (ala Rascher), will help a lot if the vibrato is an unconscious "squiggle" at the end of each note.
BTW, great comedy bit by the 12th man on MySpace.......

 

[mlscnr]

Seriously, though...let it go. We've all stunk up the joint at times. Forget about it.

 

[Billt4mn]

He seems like a knob, this mush - or like my violin teacher, who didn't want any vibrato, ever.

Love the stange (to me) words you UK guys have in your vocabulary. I have no idea what a "knob" or a "mush" is, but it's clear they're undesirable.

 

[RootyTootoot]

At least he didn't say "mooshy knobbed nob". That would NOT have been cricket.

 

[bandmommy]

Mr Pants you are NOT a miserable loser.
Well maybe miserable, but definatly not a loser. You went to the workshop to improve your skills. You gave it your best, took some criticism, and came away with a few areas that may or may not need improvement. So what if this workshop was led by Mr. Maria VonTrapp. If you look back long enough I'll bet that on the whole, the experience was pretty good.

A loser would have stayed at home crying and whining over the fact that their playing sucks. That loser wouldn't have had the guts to put themselves in a situation where his skills could be tested.

No Mr. Pants, you are not a miserable loser.
In my book you are a winner. And a very brave man. And FWIW, I prefer listening to sax with a bit of vibrato.

 

[Bill Mecca]

If there are 100 "instructors" leading a workshop and listen to DogPants play, how many DogPants's are there?

The answer is 100. Everyone sees/hears/experiences everything thru their own unique set of filters. No two people experience the same thing in exactly the same way.
bottom line, as someone else said, record yourself, do you like what you hear? if so, fine, if not change it... but to please yourself.

 

[sheski]

Solfege? In your jazz improv class? Man, don't worry about that. Tell you what. Learn "Blues For Alice" in 12 keys and you'll be alright. Try to to have a strong, unwavering sound. Solfege??? LOL. After "Blues For Alice" try singing "Donna Lee" using solfege.

 

[Finnerski]

Don't give up Mr DP! We all go through our downers along this musical journey. Keep playing, don't quit. We need you here on SOTW! Keep practicing, and never give up!

 

[hakukani]

Solfege! Arrrrghghhhh. They tried to teach me that at university. I sang (pretty much) the right notes, but never the right syllable. IMHO, you have to start that young. Jeez, next thing they'll want at jazz workshops is for everyone to do the Kodaly hand signals!

Concerning vibrato, well, I didn't hear you. I love vibrato, unless it's too fast or heavy-handed. Some people don't like it at all. A comment like 'lose the vibrato' is abrupt, and not descriptive.

Faster/slower vibrato, wider/narrower are good comments. 'Lose the vibrato' is dissmissive, like when my students wear hats to class, I say 'lose the hat'.

I can name many name brand players that have the interpersonal skills of a professional wrestler. You evidently got one of those.

Keep playin'.

 

[LatePlayer]

Its all relative - this whole thread is talking about stuff I don't understand ....... but one day maybe I will.

I'd be pleased to struggle with the stuff your depressed about struggling with ... if you know what I mean!

 

[gary]

Come on Dog Pants. You're Australian for Pete's sake. You know how to deal with stuff like this. Throw down a few Coopers, play a sand-lot game of particularly violent football with the blokes down at the local bikers bar, and tell your next door neighbor's wife that she's butt ugly.

You'll feel a lot better. Oh yeah. And loose the nanny-goat vibrato. :twisted: