[Rode700]

So I've been struggling to play more interesting lines over minor ii-7b5 - V7b9 - i-6 and was wondering about different approaches people like to use. Lets write it out as B-7b5 - E7b9 - A-6. If anyone didn't already know, A-6 has a natural 6, an F#.

Now obviously the most basic way to think of this is to only worry about the guide tones and voice leading.

So the A falls to G# (subdom to dom) I've had this described to me as a suspension but I don't know why I should think of it this way...

Then the G# can stay put or either come back up to be the root of A or fall to be the minor 7 if your feeling bluesy, the b9 resolves to the 5th or the 6th of A, and the 5th of E becomes the 3rd of A (dom to tonic) This is easy enough to think of as wrapping a rootless E7b9 around the A-6.

This much I think I understand. The part that gets me is when I start thinking of different scales

I've heard of a few different scales to use. Locrian for the B7b5. The octatonic, the altered of E and the melodic minor of A for the V - i.

With the octatonic (E half whole dim in this case) is it really just about symmetric sequences the resolve to A minor via typical voice leading or is there something deeper to it? Are there particular ways of approaching this scale that really emphasize how it's functioning?

Now the altered scale I admit I have very little understanding of. I know what it is, how's it's constructed and what it sounds like, but I still can't put it to good use. I would be thrilled on absolutely any input on this. I've been told that once you begin playing altered you absolutely must resolve it to the tonic. Why is this?

The melodic minor of the target minor seems to me a bit bland. Its the same notes you'd probably be playing over A-6 but just starting from the fifth. Is there something interesting I'm missing about this approach?

Hey I just thought of this, but what if the TARGET minor is something other that A-?

Anyway, is there anything alittle more hip than locrian over the B-7b5? Or any particularly strong way locrian can transition into the octatonic or altered?

And finally, if someone would like to contribute some patterns to shed this stuff I'd love you and be your best friend.

Sorry for such a loaded thread. Here, I'll make it up to you with this unrelated clip that I can't stop listening to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY7GnAq6Znw

Thank you!

 

[dshook]

Hey - try the harmonic minor (A in this case) over the whole progression.

 

[bari_sax_diva]

Feel up to transcribing? If so, I can send you an mp3 I recorded during one of my lessons, when I asked my teacher to play through the entire minor ii-V-I track on Aebersold Vol. 3. He's a serious cat and about as good as they get on this stuff, so if you've got the patience to work it over this might be a big help.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Hey - try the harmonic minor (A in this case) over the whole progression.

Except it might not be very happy on the Am6.

The problem is as soon as you start thinking in scales and modes for improvising on chords, then voice leading can easily go out of the window.

This is true (for me at least) whenever I try to get my head round the idea of a Locrian mode.

Any scale I might be thinking is much more likely to be that a minor harmonic as dshook said, but in this being careful on the Am

 

[Rode700]

I really should have included the harmonic minor but it slipped my mind as I don't often think of it that way. The F is more of just the b9 in my mind and the G natural a blue note over the E7b9.

adding the G# to the B-7b9 seems solid as its a nice 6th but wouldn't it mess with the voice leading of the A?

Diva I sent you a pm but i'm not sure it worked

 

[Pete Thomas]

adding the G# to the B-7b9 seems solid as its a nice 6th but wouldn't it mess with the voice leading of the A?

If you want to voice lead the A of the Bminor to a g# then yes, you wouldn't use it, but you are certainly free to use it in a context that gives you a good melodic line.

Voice leading in jazz impro is merely a guideline, not a hard and fast rule. Your creativity will ultimately dictate what notes you use.

In the above case, a 6th on a minor7 is not a note you would normally emphasise unless it does something useful, e.g. It would function as an anticipation of the next chord and so if used carefully is fine. But it might be something you would tell a beginner to avoid until they know the rules or guidelines well enough to go against them.

Of course the G# will always be fine with a Bm7 if it's used as a passing note

 

[hgiles]

Heres an idea using strictly seventh chord arpeggios:

Bm7b5 C#m7b5 | Dm7b5 Em7b5 | F#m7b5 ....

 

[bakkiemetkoekie]

Bm7b5 is subdom and you can think of G7 (now bass can go to G#o which is same as E7b9), Dminor7 and Fmaj^7 in scale of Cmaj.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Bm7b5 is subdom and you can think of G7 (now bass can go to G#o which is same as E7b9), Dminor7 and Fmaj^7 in scale of Cmaj.

Can you explain further, I don't understand this at all?

 

[bakkiemetkoekie]

Can you explain further, I don't understand this at all?

Nothing to explain. What i try to say earlyer in threads is that in a key there is tonic, subdominant and dominant. So Subdominant in minor is G7 Bmb5 Dminor and Fmaj^7 (scale of Cmaj). Dminant has E7b9 G#o (scale of aminor harmonic). And for the tonic you can use Aminor melodic with an f# and g# and has F#minb5 and Cmaj#5.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Nothing to explain.

I asked for an explanation because I didn't understand

What i try to say earlyer in threads is that in a key there is tonic, subdominant and dominant. So Subdominant in minor is G7 Bmb5 Dminor and Fmaj^7 (scale of Cmaj).

Subdominant in minor of what key? G7 is a dominant surely?

 

[bakkiemetkoekie]

Aminor is coming from Cmajor!

 

[bakkiemetkoekie]

I asked for an explanation because I didn't understand

Subdominant in minor of what key? G7 is a dominant surely?

Aminor. G7 is SD in A aeolic (but i hate those terms so thats why i say SCALE of Cmaj)
You also dont understand when you play it? It sure sounds good (At least as the melody is good)

 

[hgiles]

Let me attempt to explain what I thin BMK meant:

Bm7b5 = G7/B -- Bird actually played the same lines over these two chords.
E7b9 = G#dim/E
A- = ??

... I hope he's not saying A- = D- = F = C ; although they are diatonic.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Aminor is coming from Cmajor!

Well, it's the relative minor, yes indeed But if you are in a minor key it's better to think in that key rather than the relative major. Well it is for my simple brain anyway.

G7 is SD in A aeolic

??????

Let me attempt to explain what I thin BMK meant:

Bm7b5 = G7/B
E7b9 = G#dim/E
A- = ??

Bm7b5 is not G7/B. G7/B is G7 (1st inversion). I can understand that G#dim/E is a way to write E7b9 (guitarists sometimes think like that) but I don't understand the need for it as it confuses the actual function of the dominant.

 

[mascio]

Heres an idea using strictly seventh chord arpeggios:

Bm7b5 C#m7b5 | Dm7b5 Em7b5 | F#m7b5 ....

Ya man, this sounds nice!

 

[dogbert]

Now the altered scale I admit I have very little understanding of. I know what it is, how's it's constructed and what it sounds like, but I still can't put it to good use. I would be thrilled on absolutely any input on this. I've been told that once you begin playing altered you absolutely must resolve it to the tonic. Why is this?

I have transcribed the Henderson solo on Blue Bossa (the album is called "page one"), He plays some altered scale on the V7 chord very clearly and in a cool way.

 

[bakkiemetkoekie]

Well, it's the relative minor, yes indeed But if you are in a minor key it's better to think in that key rather than the relative major. Well it is for my simple brain anyway.

Im not thinkin in major im in minor! Minor has more than 1 scale.
Maybe this way: Bminb5 is SD and the scale of C sounds good (atleast when you begin on the right note) E7b9 is Dom and Aminor harmonic sounds good (at least when you begin on the right note)Amin is Tonic and Amin melodic souns good.

??????

SD is Sub -Dominant. So G7 is V dominant in major, in A minor its i think VII so Sub Dom.

 

[Pete Thomas]

SD is Sub -Dominant. So G7 is V dominant in major, in A minor its i think VII so Sub Dom.

I still don't understand most of what you say, but if you give me an example of a tune in A minor with a G7 chord then maybe I can begin to learn what what you mean.

In my experience a G7 is a dominant type chord so will never be a a subdominant, except in a blues which follows different rules to what we are discussing.

Please also bear in mind this thread is about functional harmony (esp II V I) in a minor key, not about modes or even about harmony in a major key, though there is often a bit of crossover.

 

[bakkiemetkoekie]

I still don't understand most of what you say, but if you give me an example of a tune in A minor with a G7 chord then maybe I can begin to learn what what you mean.

2nd bar of round midnight from : Abmin7 to Db7 and then 3 bar Ebmin6 ( thats the key). Ending of Summertime: C^ Am7 | D7 G7sus4 | Amin | %

In my experience a G7 is a dominant type chord so will never be a a subdominant, except in a blues which follows different rules to what we are discussing.

Your experience does not even alowed G7 in Amajor (think of other thread where i was talking about molldurr) so actualy you say we can not go from subdominant to tonica only in the blues?
In this case we are puttin a V in between which makes it easier. SD D T

Please also bear in mind this thread is about functional harmony (esp II V I) in a minor key, not about modes or even about harmony in a major key, though there is often a bit of crossover.1

Bear in mind? The OP wants to see other possibilities so i give and you are asking me questions which i gladly answer ( you dont to answer my question: did you try it?????) but you seem not want to understand because someone else told you something different. If you dont know it doesnt mean it doesnt excist.

Functionel harmonies II V I: SD D T thats the only thing i talk about but next time "i Bear in mind" And no i didnt talk about modes i rejected it (Hate to say aelolic so ....) and im not in major although you dont understand that it is practicly the same (maybe is that the crossover part you are talking about).