[ralph lh]

Does anyone have experience with mics for the bass/kick drum? I'm currently figuring on getting one for my band and have looked at the Sure Beta52A and the Audio Technica ATM250 and PRO25. These are about the same price.

The mic will be in front of not inside the drum - jazz setup.

Or would I be better off to get a 3or4 mic drum package. I've seen some for about $250 but I'm guessing that these would be 'cheaper' quality mics based on the price.
Thanks

 

[JCBigler]

Audix D6, Shure Beta 52, AKG D112 are all good mics for bass drum and micing bass cabinets.

The Audio-Technica ATM250DE (the one with the dual elements) is a monster of a kick drum mic. It has a dynamic mic and a condenser mic--uses a special dual XLR cable, and subsequently two channels on the console. But man, once you dial them in, there's not a better sounding kick drum mic that I have heard yet.

You will probably want at least another mic on your snare drum, and maybe a couple of over heads as well. There's some decent drum mic kits out there, but you can build a better drum mic set up one or two mics at a time.

 

[ralph lh]

Thanks JC...
I've actually got a couple of Rhode NT5's that I use as overheads but have just been using an SM57 for the bass so far. It's time to move up.

From what I'm reading so far on retail web sites I'm leaning to the Sure 52. I'd rather deal with just one mic and not a lot of fiddling on a gig set up so your Audio Technica suggestion sounds like it's a bit more than I care to play with.

 

[hakukani]

JC is, of course, absolutely right.

+1 for the D6 and 112.

For a jazz kit, like Gretsch, that are much smaller than rock kits, you can get away with less amplification.

For live jazz in a smallish room, a kick mic and an overhead are enough.

If you play more funk, fusion, smoothish, you'll want to mic like JC says.

 

[JCBigler]

Easy solution: get an Audix D6 (my buddy has a Beta 52, it's okay, but I wish we had gone with the Audix)--generally regarded as one of the best all around kick drum mics. Use your NT5's on over head. If you need more definition for snare, use your SM57. That gives you four channels on the drums, and should work well for all but the biggest of rooms. You might want to roll off the high on the NT5's, I've found them to be a little too bright most of the time.

 

[ralph lh]

Well this is soooo the place to come for any question!

I had a web look at the Audix D6 info and will be looking for that locally. Can't go wrong with the recommendations from the experts. From the pics, thought, can't tell if it requires a special stand...

Will likely try the SM57 on the snare as suggested as well since I've got an extra channel on the board for the drum kit. Would you place it real close to the snare?
Thanks Guys.

 

[JCBigler]

Will likely try the SM57 on the snare as suggested as well since I've got an extra channel on the board for the drum kit. Would you place it real close to the snare?

Put on a pair of headphones, solo the snare channel, and listen to it as your assistant/bandmate moves the mic around. The place that is sounds best is the best position for it.

I usually start out by placing the mic on the far side of the snare drum from the drummer, about an inch and half above the drum head and at about a 45 degree angle, aimed about two inches towards the center of the drum from the outer rim of the drum head. You won't need very much gain.

The D6 comes with a stand mount that will screw onto any standard mic stand.

 

[Carl H.]

The place that is sounds best is the best position for it.

Assuming the drummer won't be hitting it all night.

 

[hakukani]

Now everyone in the band will want a mic.

 

[JCBigler]

Best online price for the Audix D6 is from Rat Sound. Rat Sound, btw, is owned by Dave Rat, the FOH engineer for the Red Hot Chili Peppers, Pearl Jam, Rage Against the Machine, Beck, Foo Fighters, and many others.

 

[BarrySachs]

If there is no isolation or baffles, everyone in the same room, no bassdrum mic will be required. Let the bassdrum leak into the other mics. All of the 1960's Rudy Van Gelder recordings were done with 2 drum mics. 1 for the entire set about chest high between the cymbals, and another for the snare/hh. Rudy used Scheops 221b or cm6, but any small diaphragm condenser will do. A large condenser is also good, and more common for the main drum mic.

That said, if you still desire a bassdrum mic, a Shure sm57 will do. An AKG d12e is better or an EV RE20. Place the mic about 8" to a foot away from the drumhead and avoid the dead centre. The Audix D6 is probably fine too.

 

[DougR]

Now everyone in the band will want a mic.

Bang on. - assuming we mean live rather than studio.

As soon as you need to mic the drums, EVERYTHING else needs mic'd and that is a really big step up.

There is a lot to be said for renting - at least initially while you learn.

 

[ralph lh]

Thanks for all the input here guys. I'm not a drummer and this is for live gigs for my 10-piece jazz/dance band so most everyone else already does have a mic or is DI'd and the drum kit is not isolated on gigs.

I have been using the SM57 for the bass drum so far and while it's certainly worked ok, I figured it was time to get a good mic for this.

Thanks also for the info on mic-ing the drum kit both in studio and live. The RVG setup is very interesting. I'll have to do a little experimenting when I have the time.

 

[JCBigler]

That said, if you still desire a bassdrum mic, a Shure sm57 will do.

The SM57 doesn't have the low end presence rise required of modern kick drum mics. The SM57 is a general instrument mic with a much flatter frequency response and not intended for kick drums, or other low end sources.

I'm all for nostalgic recording practices, but using one or two omni directional mics for the whole ensemble does not produce the kind of fidelity and control over the mix which a multi-mic set up offers. It's great for a one-(or two)-off demo recording, but if you are trying to produce a recording with a professional sound, then close micing every instruments in the only way to go.

 

[CiaranAudio]

While its great that the Beta52 has been brought up (by far the best all-around kick mic I have ever used, and I've used TONNES of different combos of kick mics, compressors/gates, and board insanity), I can't believe that NOBODY has mentioned these two mic's yet:

SHURE BETA 98 for the inside of the drum on a small pillow.
SENNHEISER 421 for the sound hole.

BOTH being treated to dual-band compression and gating.

For those unframiliar, dual-band compression is taking a single input signal, splitting it into two signals "crossed-over" at a certain frequency. For me its usually 90 hz or so. An example of an inexpensive rackmount unit that enables this is the RANE DC24. So...

BETA 98 is split into two signals, signal one being all sound below 90 hz and signal two being all sound above 90 hz. I then compress them at different thresholds, ratios, and attacks/releases as so desired. So by the time I ahve both mics going, I have FOUR CHANNELS OF KICK!!!

and it gets even better....

THEN I route the kicks to a PRE-FADER Auxiliary or Subgroub and have a dedicated graph for only the kicks so I can really tailor the sound. And then of course, by being on a pre-fader auxiliary I can seperate what goes to the subs and tops respectively.

Now THAT is a sweet kick drum! Glowsticks anyone? lol

 

[hakukani]

While its great that the Beta52 has been brought up (by far the best all-around kick mic I have ever used, and I've used TONNES of different combos of kick mics, compressors/gates, and board insanity), I can't believe that NOBODY has mentioned these two mic's yet:

SHURE BETA 98 for the inside of the drum on a small pillow.
SENNHEISER 421 for the sound hole.

BOTH being treated to dual-band compression and gating.

For those unframiliar, dual-band compression is taking a single input signal, splitting it into two signals "crossed-over" at a certain frequency. For me its usually 90 hz or so. So...

BETA 98 is split into two signals, signal one being all sound below 90 hz and signal two being all sound above 90 hz. I then compress them at different thresholds, ratios, and attacks/releases as so desired. So by the time I ahve both mics going, I have FOUR CHANNELS OF KICK!!!

and it gets even better....

THEN I route the kicks to a PRE-FADER Auxiliary or Subgroub and have a dedicated graph for only the kicks so I can really tailor the sound. And then of course, by being on a pre-fader auxiliary I can seperate what goes to the subs and tops respectively.

Now THAT is a sweet kick drum! Glowsticks anyone? lol

Entirely too time consuming what you're getting, IMHO. It's just the thump. Ho hum

Best kick sound I ever had was a sample of a golf stroke played backward, with a little eq, triggered via midi. Of course I'm old fashioned...

 

[CiaranAudio]

Entirely too time consuming what you're getting, IMHO. It's just the thump. Ho hum

Best kick sound I ever had was a sample of a golf stroke played backward, with a little eq, triggered via midi. Of course I'm old fashioned...

Its a little time consuming at first, but once one has done it a few times its no big deal. My rack obviously has a snake coming out of the back, so its not like I have to re-patch everything every-gig. Actually, I can go from nothing to full sound check provided the instruments are there in about 45 mins, including 4 channels of kick, 2 channels of snare, 2 channels of bass...

And its not "just the thump!"? Maybe its a generation gap thing, but blues bands mixed to sound like a rave get wicked dancefloor response. Not an opinion, just an observation.

PS. I like big *** kick drums and chest slamming bass. Thats the key to a great live mix, getting the Kick & Bass especially locked tight, but then accounting for the snare, hi-hats, and then the bottom end of the guitar (which I put a little bit of in the subs, generally 150 hz and down just so it "chunkachunka's" a little.

After that its just making sure the Toms are gated properly and nothing gets too bright. And having a DBX1066 for vocals sure helps too!

PPS. Pre-fader auxiliaries are your friend!

PPPS. Have your effects unit outputs come back to a channel on the board, not the auxiliary return. Live sound is NOT like using Reason...lol.

 

[hakukani]

Its a little time consuming at first, but once one has done it a few times its no big deal. My rack obviously has a snake coming out of the back, so its not like I have to re-patch everything every-gig. Actually, I can go from nothing to full sound check provided the instruments are there in about 45 mins, including 4 channels of kick, 2 channels of snare, 2 channels of bass...

You mix every band the same way? Shades of the '80s

And its not "just the thump!"? Maybe its a generation gap thing, but blues bands mixed to sound like a rave get wicked dancefloor response. Not an opinion, just an observation.

PS. I like big *** kick drums and chest slamming bass. Thats the key to a great live mix, getting the Kick & Bass especially locked tight, but then accounting for the snare, hi-hats, and then the bottom end of the guitar (which I put a little bit of in the subs, generally 150 hz and down just so it "chunkachunka's" a little.

PPS. Pre-fader auxiliaries are your friend!

PPPS. Have your effects unit outputs come back to a channel on the board, not the auxiliary return. Live sound is NOT like using Reason...lol.

Yeah, it probably is a generation thing. I don't like being cooled down by the air generated by subs. I hate the people with subs in their cars, I just don't want to hear it.

I quit working the back line at concerts after a Megadeth concert. Between the strobes and subs, I was getting pretty nauseous--I just didn't think it was worth it.:twisted:

PS- I've always put my returns into board channels, when I had channels to spare. Back in the old days you REALLY needed to tweak the returns because of the nasty sound from early digital equipment (dithering, hiss, etc.). Eight bit equipment sucks, but it was what we had.

PPS-pre fader auxs are great, until something goes haywire, and you forget you had the channel that's messing up going to an outboard effect, you quickly pull the fader, and the send is still sending. Or, you might want the effect to follow the channel master level.

 

[JCBigler]

Ciaran, your set up is a good set up; if you're Metalica, and you have a 96 channel board, and 96 rack spaces for outboard gear, a full stage crew, monitor tech, system tech, drum, bass and guitar techs, and a 20,000 seat arena.

It's entirely too convoluted for a 10 piece jazz band that is playing for a few hundred people. Not to mention that the sound that you refer to is not suited to a jazz set up. Heck it's probably not even suited for a funk band. If you mic and mix every band you work for that way, then I don't want to hear you mix.

My approach to sound reinforcement: keep it simple. It's much easier to trouble shoot a one mic, one channel kick drum set up, than a two mic, four channel set up.

Unless you are fully qualified and able to run a set up like you describe, you're just asking for trouble. The problems that can arise with a set up as complicated as yours are virtually infinite. And even if I had the budget, and equipment to run a set up like that, I wouldn't use more than two channels for kick drum just on principal.

 

[CiaranAudio]

Ciaran, your set up is a good set up; if you're Metalica, and you have a 96 channel board, and 96 rack spaces for outboard gear, a full stage crew, monitor tech, system tech, drum, bass and guitar techs, and a 20,000 seat arena.

It's entirely too convoluted for a 10 piece jazz band that is playing for a few hundred people. Not to mention that the sound that you refer to is not suited to a jazz set up. Heck it's probably not even suited for a funk band. If you mic and mix every band you work for that way, then I don't want to hear you mix.

My approach to sound reinforcement: keep it simple. It's much easier to trouble shoot a one mic, one channel kick drum set up, than a two mic, four channel set up.

Unless you are fully qualified and able to run a set up like you describe, you're just asking for trouble. The problems that can arise with a set up as complicated as yours are virtually infinite. And even if I had the budget, and equipment to run a set up like that, I wouldn't use more than two channels for kick drum just on principal.

But I AM qualified to do it, and I dont need roadies or anything. I designed the rig, built the rig, and now run the rig. I know it inside and out. So dont give me the whole "overly complicated" bit. That to me is a non-sound man trying to make an excuse for not becoming "better educated". Just because you may not be able to get your head around gear, doesnt mean its not easy for some of us.

Just me and my gear and my friggin DODGE MINIVAN!!! That is paid for...gear and van...by myself, on top of horns, school/student loans and working a 44hr a wk day job (and having a girlfriend!). And I practice 90 mins a day. I'm 24.

I only have a 16-channel board, and its a three piece band, and we would LOVE to play for a "few hundred people" sometime. Usually its more like a hundred, or less.

Its not overkill, its just what I do.

Not using two kickdrum channels "on principle" is arrogant and foolish, imo. But by all means, I encourage people reinventing the wheel!!! I'm just saying if you want to sound "acceptable" do whatever the heck you want as long as it doesnt feed-back and is intelligeble.

If you want to sound great, then learn about live sound. Not what is "easiest". I friggin love live sound man, as much as sax, and have certainly done a lot of it.

And anytime you would have me I would love to mix you and your band. But based on your expressions here "if thats the way you mix then I dont want to hear it..." then instead you can go f-yourself. How dare you be so dismissive.

I do not mix every band the same way. Bands that want to sound big, huge, tight, and GOOD come to me.

So go work on your tone or play some scales or something. Convince yourself theres some nuiance about your sound that nobody else could possibly understand/work with. I'm too busy getting gigs and partying to write any more of this post.

Except that I love subs in cars. Big, f-off ones.