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Discussion Starter #1
I just acquired a Conn 10M and a Meyer mouthpiece to replace my Yamaha plastic one. I returned home from the music store eager to try it out. I asked for a large chamber MP as I was told that this Conn likes them that way. The model number is: MR-404-G181 M-5 It has a #5 tip opening. It also has a roll over baffle. Facing length is G by. That's what it says on the package.. G by

I don't really know what I am doing here or what all those number above mean. But, I do know that to play in tune I have to pull out the MP so far is threatens to fall off. Otherwise it plays very sharp... My plastic Yamaha #4 played better than this. What the hell ? The tone is an improvement though. The Meyer is a hard rubber MP.

Is this the fault of the MP or is it my embouchure ? I read somewhere that the proper mouthpiece for every horn is the one that finishes the cone of the horns bore. It completes the cone so that the horn plays in tune. This makes sense to me. It explains how a larger chamber effects intonation. In comparing the Yamaha next to the Meyer it's obvious that the shank of the Yamaha is about 3/8 '' longer.
 

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Back in the early 80's I was playing baritone sax in several big bands. At that time I had a lady on the bell Conn baritone. I had the same problem with a Selmer mouthpiece. My teacher glued an extension onto the mpc and problem solved. Having said that I wouldn't buy a large chamber mpc because someone said that's what I should do. If you're lucky enough to be near a music store that has a variety of mpcs you should try a variety of them before making a purchase. I'd just return the Meyer if I were you and keep looking if you feel you really need a better mpc. It seems unlikely that it is you that is the problem as you apparently you didn't have this problem with your Yamaha mpc. Bring a tuner with you when you go to try mpcs and keep an open mind instead of thinking you absolutely need a mpc with a large chamber. You might just find that a medium chamber works better for you.
 

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Going to a good shop & trying out mouthpieces is a great suggestion, Your profile doesn't mention where you are located, you may want to add that info because people on this site know other people & can often make recommendations as to where & who you can talk to

So... where are you located?
 

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You may want to experiment with playing lower on the mouthpiece pitch. This will allow you to push the mouthpiece in a bit and still be in tune at A=440. If I am not mistaken the Yamaha student mouthpiece has quite a narrow tip opening. Going from that to the more open Meyer will be an adjustment, although that particular Meyer is not that wide. Generally speaking a more open tip will require a reed that is a bit softer. This can also help in bringing the mouthpiece (input) pitch down. I am an adherent of tuning your embouchure to play a Concert E on the tenor mouthpiece and neck to help the tuning and intonation to lock in.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
To answer one question, I live about an hours drive and a ferry ride from Seattle. I went to Silverdale today, to a Ted Brown music store. I made sure I could return the MP first. I am going back Monday to try out some others and talk to their tech about it. I have the horn playing in tune, but with the MP pulled out with about 5/8'' left on the neck. I've been told that this Meyer has a short shank. The guy who sold me this horn said it played well for him with a large chamber MP. I've also been reading on threads that 10M necks are sometimes lengthened to resolve this and so 'modern' MP's can be used. i am more inclined to find the right MP. Lots of guys played the horn very well without modifying the neck. I need one of their MP's perhaps.

In any case I will return to the store Monday and try out some different MP's and if they don't have what I want I can take a drive to Seattle or Tacoma. I'm going to play on this Meyer for awhile and then switch back to the Yamaha and see if I notice the difference. I am enjoying the tone but maybe it a placebo effect. I did find that my #3 reed was a bit too hard. i switched to 2 1/2. That plays with more ease and better intonation.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
You may want to experiment with playing lower on the mouthpiece pitch. This will allow you to push the mouthpiece in a bit and still be in tune at A=440. If I am not mistaken the Yamaha student mouthpiece has quite a narrow tip opening. Going from that to the more open Meyer will be an adjustment, although that particular Meyer is not that wide. Generally speaking a more open tip will require a reed that is a bit softer. This can also help in bringing the mouthpiece (input) pitch down. I am an adherent of tuning your embouchure to play a Concert E on the tenor mouthpiece and neck to help the tuning and intonation to lock in.
I was wondering about that.. are you saying that I should push the MP further onto the neck ? I found that to be true for a flute. It's in tune with the headjoint pulled a small way out and it plays in tune again with it pulled out much further. I like it better the first way. I did find that the MP played better with a 2 1/2 than the 3.. easier and with better intonation. I did try playing the neck. It easily sounded the E, but with the MP pulled out.
 

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Is the Meyer G a real large chambered piece?
The one I had for alto years back didn’t have what I would call a large chamber.
Actually it didn’t have anything going for it really.
A very dull piece from what I recall.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
So... where are you located?[/QUOTE]

I live near Port Townsend, WA.. on the Olympic Peninsula. Seattle and Tacoma have music stores.. not so much where I live. Mostly everything is for guitar players. Horns are an afterthought. I followed your suggestion and listed where I live.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Is the Meyer G a real large chambered piece?
The one I had for alto years back didn’t have what I would call a large chamber.
Actually it didn’t have anything going for it really.
A very dull piece from what I recall.
I asked the expert on woodwinds for a large chamber, free blowing MP. She pointed out that the bore of the MP just carries through. I do love the sound it makes. I've been switching between three MP's to hear the difference. The problem seems to be that the Meyer has a short shank. There's a bad joke in there about the short shank, but I ain't gonna go there.
 

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Mouthpieces with less than adequate chamber volume can gain it somewhat through shank length.
Pieces with a proper large chamber don’t need particularly long shanks.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Mouthpieces with less than adequate chamber volume can gain it somewhat through shank length.
Pieces with a proper large chamber don’t need particularly long shanks.
I am sure you are correct but all I know is that I'd be happy with this MP if it had a longer shank. I don't know how to measure the volume of this Meyer but I did specify that I wanted a free blowing large chamber MP. I'm going to take it back and try some others. I guess the fact that I need to pull it out so far indicates that I need more chamber volume. So are you saying that it is not a longer shank that is required but more volume in the chamber ? Pulling it out more does create a larger chamber, no ?
 

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A longer shank will likely have the same effect, I was just saying that had it been a proper large chambered piece the shank extension would not be necessary.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
A longer shank will likely have the same effect, I was just saying that had it been a proper large chambered piece the shank extension would not be necessary.
That's what I thought you meant. I agree with you. Maybe if it had more girth there'd be more volume. I'm a beginner with mouthpiece stuff. I think I need to find the MP's that are known to work well on a Conn 10M and try one of them. Thanks for your feedback.
 

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Is the Meyer G a real large chambered piece?
The one I had for alto years back didn’t have what I would call a large chamber.
Actually it didn’t have anything going for it really.
A very dull piece from what I recall.
+10,000,000

Im not in love with Meyers for tenor...the vintage ones are a better though. The G is only a Meyer by name. I still dont know why they make them. The alto versions are the worst pieces Ive ever played. I refuse to reface them. Its been a while since I saw the tenor version.


Go find a Link. If it does not get on with your Conn there is some other problem.

I also bet being a new mpc and a slightly bigger tip that you are biting?????
that makes tuning a nightmare.
try to relax
 

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10Ms can be picky with mouthpieces, whatever the reason. I have three Conn tenors, two of them being 10Ms (1937 and 1949). I've had mouthpieces that play sharp on them, and cannot be tuned without falling off the end of the neck. I've never played a Meyer mouthpiece, but given your experience, they're just another of the problem brands, so I'll steer well clear of them.

However, I have other mouthpieces that play beautifully in tune, with the shank sitting an inch or more onto the cork. There are loads of them; I have about twenty at present, but to simplify matters I'll make just two suggestions of mouthpieces to try:

1. Otto Link STM. I know these metal mouthpieces are pricey, but they WORK. If you don't want a brand new one, pick up a secondhand one on eBay or here on SotW.

2. 10Mfan HR Robusto. This mouthpiece was designed with the 10M in mind. Highly recommended.

There are plenty more that might be suitable, and I'm sure others will be more than willing to give you advice. If your Meyer mouthpiece can't be tuned, take it back and try out one or both of the above.

By the way, I'd suggest you try a 7 tip mouthpiece (0.100") with a 2 or 2½ reed. I find that Vandoren Red Java reeds work best for me.
 

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I just acquired a Conn 10M and a Meyer mouthpiece to replace my Yamaha plastic one. I returned home from the music store eager to try it out. I asked for a large chamber MP as I was told that this Conn likes them that way. The model number is: MR-404-G181 M-5 It has a #5 tip opening. It also has a roll over baffle. Facing length is G by. That's what it says on the package.. G by

I don't really know what I am doing here or what all those number above mean. But, I do know that to play in tune I have to pull out the MP so far is threatens to fall off. Otherwise it plays very sharp... My plastic Yamaha #4 played better than this. What the hell ? The tone is an improvement though. The Meyer is a hard rubber MP.

Is this the fault of the MP or is it my embouchure ? I read somewhere that the proper mouthpiece for every horn is the one that finishes the cone of the horns bore. It completes the cone so that the horn plays in tune. This makes sense to me. It explains how a larger chamber effects intonation. In comparing the Yamaha next to the Meyer it's obvious that the shank of the Yamaha is about 3/8 '' longer.
Meyer's are good mouthpieces and I doubt there is anything wrong with it although it's a little closed. Try pushing IN and doing the exercise below. Phil Barone

Exercise One
Finger low F but sound middle F by slightly over-blowing and be sure to feel the muscles in your stomach when you blow. When you take a breath your stomach should come out instead of your shoulders going up. Using the muscles in the upper, front part of your throat, "slide" it down to low F. It's a subtle movement so it takes some time to get in touch with these muscles because you may not have ever used them. Before you attempt it remember that the pressure on the reed should just be enough to FEEL the reed through your bottom lip with your teeth using the same muscles you'd use to chew your food, not your facial muscles. You should never use facial or lip muscles. This is crucial.
You will feel this subtle movement in the lower part of your throat if you're doing it correctly when the octave drops to low F. There's no rhythm so hold the note for as long as you have to until it sounds low F but do it with the air stream while opening your throat and supporting your diaphragm. Be patient with yourself because you're doing something new and may take a little time. One way for you to understand how to make it happen and experience the feeling in your throat is to take a deep breath and when you run out of air the low F will sound naturally.
Just keep blowing until you run out of air and the low F sounds but remember to be aware of the front part of your throat. Pay close attention to what's happening and once you get it you'll be able to do it on command.
Now, once you begin to get it, it will most likely be sloppy, you may hear squeaks and other sounds in between the first F and the low F so work on making it clean but don't use your embouchure to drop to the lower octave. If there's a gurgle or some distortion in between the middle F and low F that means you need to use more air or more consistent air but keep trying it until its CLEAN and PRECISE. Use your diaphragm, open your throat and relax more as you go to the low F keeping the diaphragm supported.
Do this exercise chromatically down to low Bb. It gets harder as you go down but the benefits will come by just practicing it, not by perfecting it. As you go further down on your instrument I suggest you return to the previous notes like F. If you're working on B you may want to practice C for a little while because you may have to re-experience the sensation to make it happen on lower notes.
You should probably do it on F and E before you venture further down the register but trying to do it on D or Eb won't hurt because it's harder and may give you some insight on how to do it on D flat for example. If you're not successful then stop and take a break because you don't want to reinforce bad habits and the worst thing that can happen is if you start feeling tightness around your embouchure because that exactly what we're trying to avoid. And remember, these exercises are just for warming up and cooling down and should not be done for too long.
This is part II of the tone production exercises I learned from Joe Allard and Victor Morosco with embellishments by myself but the credit really belongs to Joe and Victor who really revolutionized the way the saxophone and clarinet should be played with regard to the embouchure. From a mouthpiece makers perspective it's completely and utterly ridiculous that anyone would play any other way such as with a tight embouchure while not taking less than an inch of mouthpiece in the player's mouth. Evidence of this is apparent by looking at photos of John Coltrane, Sonny Rollins, Michael Brecker and virtually ALL of the greatest players of all time. While there may be exceptions. Ernie Watts is up past the biteplate on his mouthpiece and so is Sonny Rollins and Mike Brecker used to play way up there too and Mike and Ernie were both studio players and played every genre of music so don't let anyone tell you that you can only play certain ways or a particular style using this method.
Another great exercise is to purchase a very large tip opening mouthpiece to warm up on and do these exercises and to teach you to use your diaphragm completely. However, you can do more harm than good if you use a hard reed on a very open mouthpiece and it may cause you to become tight. Just remember not to bite or use too much pressure on the mouthpiece, you must blow harder on a more open mouthpiece to set it the reed in motion.
Contrary to popular belief, the saxophone is best played with a very loose embouchure in order to let the reed "float". I've studied the Larry Teal method which is very different and having made mouthpieces for so long I believe the Allard method is best. There will always be some tightness and jaw movement no matter what you do and there have been plenty of players that didn't subscribe to this method that sounded great but there are many variables and nothing is unequivocal, especially in art where anything can go and who's to say how these few may have sounded had they embraced the Allard method. Maybe a lot better.
I'll add that it's not necessary to get obsessed with these exercises but try to do them correctly and put in a few minutes to warm up and a few minutes to cool down each day.
Points to Remember
1. Remember that you can't take too much mouthpiece in within reason. You shouldn't choke but try to pass the point that the facing starts on the rails of the mouthpiece, an inch for tenor, and 3/4 for alto. That's the teeth should be past that, not the lips. At first, this will be uncomfortable and the sound may be crass and hard to control but be mindful and you will persevere. The crassness will go away in a few days or less.
2. The only pressure on the reed should be with the bottom teeth through the lip USING THE JAW MUSCLES, NOT THE MUSCLES IN YOUR FACE. It should just be enough to FEEL the reed through the lower lip. Any more than that and you begin to close the tip opening of the mouthpiece off.
3. If you're playing loud or soft you should always be filling the same amount of air through the sax but when you're playing loud you're moving the air through the sax faster and when you're playing softly you're moving the air through slowly.
Whether this is true or not I honestly don't know, it's just a metaphor to enable you to be able to always fill the saxophone up with air all the time. Always imagine your horn being full of air whenever you're playing and you'll always have a fuller, bigger sound.
 

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Just to note, we had a similar situation with a Slant Sig 8 clone on a 316xxx 10m I owned. We had two players and a few horns to play against. It did not have the problem with my STM 6* or Guy Hawkins metal.

Chalk it up to learning experience and have fun finding a new mp for your tenor.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
10Ms can be picky with mouthpieces, whatever the reason. I have three Conn tenors, two of them being 10Ms (1937 and 1949). I've had mouthpieces that play sharp on them, and cannot be tuned without falling off the end of the neck. I've never played a Meyer mouthpiece, but given your experience, they're just another of the problem brands, so I'll steer well clear of them.

However, I have other mouthpieces that play beautifully in tune, with the shank sitting an inch or more onto the cork. There are loads of them; I have about twenty at present, but to simplify matters I'll make just two suggestions of mouthpieces to try:

1. Otto Link STM. I know these metal mouthpieces are pricey, but they WORK. If you don't want a brand new one, pick up a secondhand one on eBay or here on SotW.

2. 10Mfan HR Robusto. This mouthpiece was designed with the 10M in mind. Highly recommended.

There are plenty more that might be suitable, and I'm sure others will be more than willing to give you advice. If your Meyer mouthpiece can't be tuned, take it back and try out one or both of the above.

By the way, I'd suggest you try a 7 tip mouthpiece (0.100") with a 2 or 2½ reed. I find that Vandoren Red Java reeds work best for me.
I've been playing the Java reds for a few years now. I like them. I did find that the change from the Yamaha to the Meyer, with it's larger tip opening, required a softer reed. I went from the 3 to a 2.1/2. The Meyer is a *5 and the Yamaha is a *4. I don't know how or if those numbers relate to each other. I bought my Conn from a SOTW member. Here is the link to the FS ad
https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showt...highlight=Late+Model+Conn+10M+Tenor+Saxophone
Yeah, it's a 1960 10M It sure beats what I've been playing though... a 22M. Can you recommend a particular MP for sale on SOTW or elsewhere ? How much should I expect to pay for a good MP ? What do you think of the previous rather long post on this thread? I really don't think I can fix this issue by working on my embouchure, not that I don't need to work on improving it. If the Meyer had more chamber volume I could play it in tune. Pulling the MP out effectively increases the volume.
I asked the woodwinds specialist at the Ted Brown store for a free blowing, large chamber MP. (it's the closest big store near me.. an hour drive away) She recommended the Meyer. The round shape of the bore carries through the MP. When you sight through the it you see a circle not a rectangle. I suspect that if the girth of the MP were slightly larger I could push it further onto the neck and it would not play sharp. With it pulled out I can play it in tune (mostly) from top to bottom. A Meyer HRub is one of the recommended MP's for a 10M. It's not a vintage version but the volume should be the same, right ? So Monday it's back to the store to return the Meyer and try out some others.
Can you or anyone else can recommend a store local to me (50 mile radius from Seattle) where I can try out MP's ? This going through the mail thing is so tedious. Thank you for the feedback. Cheers, Dave the treblemaker (I play flute too)
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Just to note, we had a similar situation with a Slant Sig 8 clone on a 316xxx 10m I owned. We had two players and a few horns to play against. It did not have the problem with my STM 6* or Guy Hawkins metal. Chalk it up to learning experience and have fun finding a new mp for your tenor.
So what's going on here ? Are they making MP's with less chamber volume these days ? If it's a clone the volume should be the same. I am very much a newbie when it comes to researching MP's. But, it seems to me, from the reading I've been doing, that baffle design is more about subtle things. The chamber volume does complete the horn's cone and affect it's intonation the most... I think? Thanks for the feedback.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Woops.. duplicate post deleted
 
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