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The Vandoren they sell is also fake, I bought a Meyer alto (from AliExpress) and a V16 Tenor (from eBay). The mouthpieces on the pictures are Meyer/Vandoren, but the mouthpieces the send you are not even a copy. I gave them bad feedback and they asked me to remove the feedback and refund some of the money. I replied that they must change the text before I change anything, and write that this is a copy, not original.
Now I report all of these I find on eBay as a scam. If we all do it maybe it's useful?
V16: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-...hash=item5210acf76a:m:mlwWWs1Gj0cL7GYzE5PPH0A

This is what they sent me:
View attachment 219546
View attachment 219548
View attachment 219550

Read my feedback here (they added "Replica" after my feedback, but it is not a replica. And they still use the wrong pictures.: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Rep...43.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.12824c4d3p4kCPR
Ebay feedback: https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayIS...=25&interval=0&searchInterval=30&mPg=6&page=2
 

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Bakelite Meyer?!!!!!!!!

What's next? A tofu MkVI?

Get your money back then report them to Ebay AND Paypal.
 

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I asked the seller where they're made. Here's his reply:

Your previous message
Are these made in USA or in China?

New message from: bestprofessionalitems (2)
China sir

Now look at this:

Get to know the seller bestprofessionalitems
Located: El hajen, state, Morocco
• Member since: Mar 29, 2018
• Positive Feedback: 100%

RUN!

The MKVI will be made of couscous. Still a bad choice.
 

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Well, somebody beat me to it. I saw similar blanks appear several months ago and started a blog about how to make yourself a vintage NY Meyer Brothers 6M alto, since those pieces in particular are selling for silly amounts (I assume because somebody famous played one). The blog isn't finished, but I'll publish it for your entertainment and hopefully finish the last little bit it in the near future. The blank that I purchased at least has a vintage Meyer chamber, not a flat-walled chamber that was never used on a Meyer mp. And the one I bought is actually ebonite, which I prefer for refacing.

Give the Ebay seller some credit. First, they are selling them for less than the "other" Chinese Meyer (I paid $39 with no ligature). Second, they didn't fake the most collectible version, as I was doing. And, just in case anybody is interested, what if they play better than the vintage originals? Does that matter to anybody?

Mark
 

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Well, somebody beat me to it. I saw similar blanks appear several months ago and started a blog about how to make yourself a vintage NY Meyer Brothers 6M alto, since those pieces in particular are selling for silly amounts (I assume because somebody famous played one). The blog isn't finished, but I'll publish it for your entertainment and hopefully finish the last little bit it in the near future. The blank that I purchased at least has a vintage Meyer chamber, not a flat-walled chamber that was never used on a Meyer mp. And the one I bought is actually ebonite, which I prefer for refacing.

Give the Ebay seller some credit. First, they are selling them for less than the "other" Chinese Meyer (I paid $39 with no ligature). Second, they didn't fake the most collectible version, as I was doing. And, just in case anybody is interested, what if they play better than the vintage originals? Does that matter to anybody?

Mark
I just gotta say, I think that it is rather irresponsible of you to be publishing a step by step guide to forging a vintage mouthpiece. You obviously have some strong opinions on the value (or lack thereof) of certain vintage mouthpieces, which happen to be selling for premium prices, and you are certainly entitled to those opinions. What with all the daily talk on SOTW about counterfeit horns and mouthpieces, I don't see why you'd want to muddy the waters further by essentially encouraging people to fake these items. At the very least, I'd appreciate if you remove the pictures and references to my ebay listing from your blog, because you are taking it completely out of context.

Troy
aka greatlakeswinds from ebay
 

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Hey Mark your blog post on making fake Meyer Bros is great, you're a clever devil, you've got skills. Have you thought of branching out to say: illegal firearms modifications for the mob?
 

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Well, somebody beat me to it. I saw similar blanks appear several months ago and started a blog about how to make yourself a vintage NY Meyer Brothers 6M alto, since those pieces in particular are selling for silly amounts (I assume because somebody famous played one). The blog isn't finished, but I'll publish it for your entertainment and hopefully finish the last little bit it in the near future. The blank that I purchased at least has a vintage Meyer chamber, not a flat-walled chamber that was never used on a Meyer mp. And the one I bought is actually ebonite, which I prefer for refacing.

Give the Ebay seller some credit. First, they are selling them for less than the "other" Chinese Meyer (I paid $39 with no ligature). Second, they didn't fake the most collectible version, as I was doing. And, just in case anybody is interested, what if they play better than the vintage originals? Does that matter to anybody?

Mark
Snap, NY Meyer USAs here I come! Buff out made "Made in USA," etch "New York USA" and you go from a $100 Meyer to a $900.
 

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Troy,

I put in the pictures (minus the sellers name) to give context. $2,499.00 for a Meyer 5M with a nick in the tip. That's the context I got from various Ebay listings. That Meyer isn't the only one on Ebay with that kind of asking price, so it isn't directed at any particular seller, just the market in general, as is often discussed here. What about the picture (or the similar listings) is "completely out of context?" The price? The condition? The famous player? The market?

I don't have a problem if somebody pays the asking price. I'm only presenting an alternative (some of it tongue in cheek). Buyers who purchase without playing are paying for the embossing and I'm just showing that the embossing isn't all that difficult, at least to create a quick rudimentary facsimile. Those who are afraid of fakes flooding the market have a sure fire method of protecting themselves. Play test it. The only problem would be if the replica plays the same. Then one would have to ask why pay the premium?

Mark
 

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Grafton alto | Martin Comm III tenor
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Those who are afraid of fakes flooding the market have a sure fire method of protecting themselves. Play test it. The only problem would be if the replica plays the same.
I would bet in most cases the replica will not play as well, unless the player didn't actually know it was the replica.
 

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you cant fake perfection. My 1920s meyer tenor mpc was originally played by a tenor player in Paul Whiteman's band and given to him as a promotional. It is like a dream and handed down to me, the 3rd owner. Fake that!
 

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Grafton alto | Martin Comm III tenor
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you cant fake perfection. My 1920s meyer tenor mpc was originally played by a tenor player in Paul Whiteman's band and given to him as a promotional. It is like a dream and handed down to me, the 3rd owner. Fake that!
It may be worth doing as a backup. Of course you can't fake that wonderful history, but any mouthpiece can be cloned. I have a Toots Mondello baritone mouthpiece that came to me via Harry Gold but supposedly originally from Adrian Rollini. I had a copy made by Ed Pillinger because I love that mouthpiece and it feels safer to just have the copy.
 

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Troy,

I put in the pictures (minus the sellers name) to give context. $2,499.00 for a Meyer 5M with a nick in the tip. That's the context I got from various Ebay listings. That Meyer isn't the only one on Ebay with that kind of asking price, so it isn't directed at any particular seller, just the market in general, as is often discussed here. What about the picture (or the similar listings) is "completely out of context?" The price? The condition? The famous player? The market?

I don't have a problem if somebody pays the asking price. I'm only presenting an alternative (some of it tongue in cheek). Buyers who purchase without playing are paying for the embossing and I'm just showing that the embossing isn't all that difficult, at least to create a quick rudimentary facsimile. Those who are afraid of fakes flooding the market have a sure fire method of protecting themselves. Play test it. The only problem would be if the replica plays the same. Then one would have to ask why pay the premium?

Mark
OK man, I'll give you a pass on the 'out of context' thing...perhaps that was an overstatement on my part. I hope you can appreciate though why that was my initial reaction...I clicked on a random SOTW post hoping to educate and inform myself about the possible pitfalls of fake Meyer mouthpieces on the market, and instead happened to find a blog that seemingly promotes making such forgories AND happens to have references to one of my own ebay listings. I think that would irk just about any seller!

Just for clarification, for anyone else who may be reading this...the $2500 asking price was simply a starting point (based on what other NY Meyer bros. had recently sold for). I actually slashed the price considerably within a very short time frame (and prior to Mark's publishing of his blog post I might add) due to lack of response by the market, and ended up selling the piece for $1500. I think there was a bit of an implication that the nick on the tip rail was not disclosed, however it was, in the text which was not visible in the screen shot. Lastly, I never implied that the 5M facing was anything special. I did use the term 'holy grail' simply because that term has become so ubiquitous with this specific mouthpiece type (as well as the slant sig Link for tenor and Brilhart triple band ligature) that it seems almost expected.

At any rate, I suppose it isn't really a major deal that you used my ebay item as an example, but I still think that publishing a 'how to' guide on creating a forgery isn't cool. You say it is 'tongue and cheek', but not everyone will take it as such. I just don't see why you'd want to risk the very real likelihood that someone gets duped by a fake you inspired just for the sake of proving your point.

By the way, just to expand upon this a bit...I happened to have run across your blog on making an Otto Link ligature a while back and had the same feeling on that when I saw it. I have just now read your blog on making an Otto Link slant sig mouthpiece. I actually find that post to be rather informative and relevant. You present some good historical information, but more importantly, the scope of the blog focuses on creating a functionally similar (I won't say identical) piece to the vintage Link slant sig. Yet your blog piece on the Meyer takes the opposite approach, focusing mainly on how to turn a cheap no name blank into a mouthpiece that will 'pass' for being a true vintage Meyer Bros. That is what I take issue with.
 

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Sure, the embossing on the mouthpiece is often the part that gets the most attention, whether in a blog, an Ebay sale, or a discussion here. The blog points out that it can be fake. And, as noted above, the mouthpiece's history can also be faked. For instance, my new vintage Meyer Brothers was originally owned by XXX, a famous cat and my favorite alto player, who gave it to another famous player who, on his death bed, gave it to me. He said, "Here kid, take this mouthpiece and give me some credit when you cut your first album." Faking history is much easier and certainly faster than faking the embossing, which actually isn't all that simple. It's a little tedious and time consuming. Sort of like searching for the Holy Grail. I should be practicing.

The blog certainly wasn't directed at you. If you read the Slant Sig blog, you saw at the end of it another Ebay auction for a $2k Meyer alto piece. I've now added that picture to the Meyer blog. I could add 10 more similar pictures. Search Ebay for "Holy Grail Saxophone Mouthpiece" and you will find eternal happiness in the form of Link Slants, Dukoff Power Chambers, Rico Gregorys, etc.

There was no implication that the nick wasn't disclosed or that the piece wasn't described accurately. The pictures were clear, which isn't the case with every Holy Grail mouthpiece.

As to making a forgery, I once put a $150,000.00 check on a color copier, after telling the guy at Kinkos to look the other way. The check said right on it "DO NOT COPY." It's on the wall in my office right now. Oh no, I've told everybody how to do it!! Now others will try it or I'll now be flooded with requests by SOTW members to make some copies for them. It's what a person does with the copy has moral implications. Obviously, some here thought first and foremost of selling the copy. Take issue with them, not me.

Like the Link blog, the intent was to be informative, especially the "unexactitude" (if that is a word) of just what constitutes a real Meyer facing. Maybe it's something to think about before dropping $2k for a Holy Grail mouthpiece.

Funny that nobody objects to copying a Meyer facing, copying a Meyer chamber, coping a Meyer baffle, i.e., copying everything that will make a $40 mouthpiece sound and play exactly like (or better than) a vintage Meyer 6M. But copy the engraving! That is heresy. It appears that the blog may be correct and it is the engraving that is the Holy Grail.

Mark
 

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Grafton alto | Martin Comm III tenor
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Funny that nobody objects to copying a Meyer facing, copying a Meyer chamber, coping a Meyer baffle, i.e., copying everything that will make a $40 mouthpiece sound and play exactly like (or better than) a vintage Meyer 6M. But copy the engraving! That is heresy. It appears that the blog may be correct and it is the engraving that is the Holy Grail.
I think there may be a difference, as the engraving could be a Trademark. Unless a facing or chamber has a patent, then no IP theft would have occurred by copying.

But I thought it was a great blog/article and I think you are right, it is the engraving that is the holy grail. And now the fakes are exposed it has to be proven to be original to have any Holy Grailishness.
 

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I think there may be a difference, as the engraving could be a Trademark. Unless a facing or chamber has a patent, then no IP theft would have occurred by copying.

But I thought it was a great blog/article and I think you are right, it is the engraving that is the holy grail. And now the fakes are exposed it has to be proven to be original to have any Holy Grailishness.
Pete is correct that no Intellectual Property case regarding patent infringement could be filed in the EU or USA by the Meyer knockoffs, but, there is a Trademark infringement action that could be prosecuted and there are criminal penalties that come with using a valid trademark with the intent to defraud. The Vandoren and Meyer pieces would probably fall into that area. Interesting to note that in some jurisdictions knowingly receiving the fraudulent property is a crime.
 

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Who can you sue, China??? Mouthpiece copies!!! Companies Branding isn't the only thing lifted !!
This has been the Chinese way for the last 100 years.
Chinese factories manufacture foreign things from fashion items to iPhones and duplicate the complete factory, technology, and designs elsewhere in China.
They provide jobs and supply the Asian market, something for nothing-its capitalism right -a fair profit!
China does not honor copyright laws outside the US except on negotiated items- and even then they cheat. With the internet, they can reach around US copyright laws with minor modifications, like a change of spelling, or material. Who are you going to sue!!

Louis Vuitton has been fighting China for decades now. Copy handbags from the cousin factory are an
underground market here in NYC, complete with bus tours from New Jersey bringing in buyers to Canal Street Hawkers.
There are even competing levels of copies that span decades- discerning women I interviewed know the good copies from the "cheap" copies
and are happy to pay $200, for good copy of a $1000 handbag.

Are these fakes???
https://www.dhgate.com/product/selmer-s80-mouthpiece-c-c-e-b-flat-soprano/430053296.html

https://www.dhgate.com/product/new-...elite/414228309.html#s1-0-1b;searl|2885038421

https://www.dhgate.com/product/bran...phone/419605283.html#s1-2-1b;searl|0083950099

https://www.dhgate.com/product/new-...recinfo=8,103,6#cppd-6-5|null:103:r0774984065

Louis Vuitton clutch $15
https://www.dhgate.com/product/classic-123-old-flower-long-peas-folding/438415532.html
 

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Grafton alto | Martin Comm III tenor
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Who can you sue, China???
No of course you cannot sue a country, you would need to sue the seller/manufacturer. I have been successful in getting counterfeit items removed from sale, but never sued anyone yet though my publisher has.

Mouthpiece copies!!! Companies Branding isn't the only thing lifted !!
No, patents are also copied, however most mouthpieces do not carry a current patent anyone so copying a mouthpiece design or dimensions is perfectly legal, so usually it is only the copying of a trademark (and the implied intent to mislead and defraud) which is illegal. It is not something restricted to China, and it seems to me the businesses in the western countries that are creating the demand are just as guilty as the manufacturers (wherever they be). Often they are not just implicit due to creating the demand but are actually colluding in the crime.

China is often fingered as being the biggest source of counterfeit items, but then it would be due to the sheer volume of manufacturing going on there (legal or not) so maybe it's not fair to blame the country as a whole. The difficulty of a lawsuit there is more likely merely due to the difficulty of any lawsuit in a different country. China seems to be working very hard to combat this poor image it has:

https://www.worldtrademarkreview.co...es-and-strategies-anti-counterfeiting-china-0

A criminal anywhere (France, US, Brazil) can very easily and quickly order a product to be manufactured in China, supply the specs and artwork for logo and it can be made very quickly. I doubt that a lot of the manufacturers would even know whether they are making counterfeit or legitimate products so they may well be unknowing partners in crimes that are planned in other countries.

A manufacturing contract may well have a clause that whoever is commissioning the job is is the rights owners, which would possibly indemnify any manufacturing company against claims. In court it would be argued that they would surely know that a household name such as Louis Vuitton is NOT owned by a random customer in Milwaukee, but there is no reason for them to have heard of niche brands such as Meyer, Link or even Selmer.
 
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