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Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru
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Discussion Starter #1
It hasn’t been long since the introduction of the new rules but I feel there is now a need to ask the membership about how they feel that things are going.

The forum is not a democracy, true, but it also only ever lives if people are happy enough to stay and produce content. P

My personal feeling is that the change was big but the results are rather undesired ( are they? Please let us know how you feel about how this is working).

If I recall correctly this whole thing came about because of a number of abuses

1) excessive bumping ( we had rules but they were only respected by some)
2) Vendors offering their wares on a too frequent base polluting the view of the “ new threads”.
3) Bickering in the ads ( although we had rules against that too ). Only blatant cases of fraud should require the attention of the staff, all the rest of things are govened by what people agree upon when they enter the PRIVATE transaction. An ad is NOT a discussion thread (those are other things and shouldn’t be opened to discuss something is a for sale thread specifically, otherwise this is a circumvention of the spirit of this rule).

My feeling is that the vendor’s situation (as in several ads per week published) hasn’t improved at all. In fact it has got worse while the general secondhand items sales is going (will get worse) pear shaped.

I’ll explain.

Since bumping is not allowed at all anymore (except for vendors which were part of the problem to start with), those ads are being simply buried under layers of new ads, making them almost useless once they disappear from view ( I have had even in the past people asking me if I were selling something that was for sale but they never saw because it wasn’t bumped!) under the weight of all the stuff for sale, especially because there is no limit to the number of ads that anyone can post per month, year.

The way I always felt was that the forum was first and foremost a discussion forum with members exchanging secondhand items in the for sale section. This is not what it looks like if you look at the forum’s new threads as I do, on a daily basis.

Vendors, to me, should have their own sites ( which they may link to their signature) yes, announce here their new products ( and not necessarily make a weekly special offer but only when they are introduced ) and sell there, on their own forum ( what keeps otherwise any shop to put their stuff for sale here?) but their participation to the forum shouldn’t not be about the selling of their wares (!) not should it be about advising the buying of their goods on every possible occasion in threads (or have people shill their products , how do we know they are not being given favors for this?).

This was in fact, I remember, an issue which caused banning in the past of some folks.

The only items for sale on the forum should be secondhand items owned by the membership.

In order to put some limit to the proliferation, members should be allowed one ad a month (maximum) with one item per ad. The forum is not responsible for the contacts between private people and how they decide to conduct (or not) the sale.

You may bump your ad once a month, but that counts as your monthly ad (in other words if you bump it for that month you cannot sell something else).

I understand that needs SOME policing but it is not that all the members are out to abuse the system.

Vendors only advertise their site here but their sales are conducted outside of the forum. I don’t want to see this ads almost every day just as much as I wouldn’t want to have forced upon me any ad that I don’t want to see. What is the difference between vendor’s ads and other ads? I don’t know. To me they are unwanted advertising.

What do people think? Please share your thoughts.
 

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Grafton alto | Martin Comm III tenor
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Some good points here, I'll look forward to members' comments.

under the weight of all the staff for sale,
And as people may know, some of the staff are quite cheap!
 

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Discussion Starter #3
yes :) it was a nice un-intended pun(corrected while you were posting btw :)). But seriously the point of a possible conflict of interest is there.

Taking out the vendors directly selling their wares element from the forum would help.

Also there is a very big problem with the whole influencers thing. There should be rules also about this. There is a THICK definition line between offering opinions and exploiting the forum for personal gains and it should be very clear what one is doing.

The problem is spreading ( one, two or three scoops of ice-cream?)

 

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Well, I am pretty happy that the useless "someone grab this opportunity", "nice-looking horn", etc. posts have disappeared.

Anyway.

"The only items for sale on the forum should be secondhand items owned by the membership."

I think that is a very good one. Or, the vendor ads should show up in a separate area from New Posts. It is hard not to see vendor ads as, well, what they are: advertising.

"In order to put some limit to the proliferation, members should be allowed one ad a month (maximum) with one item per ad."

That sounds about right for most types of items, except for the mouthpiece drawer clean-outs. To me it seems reasonable to be able to offer more than one (secondhand) mouthpiece per month. But, if there is a large number like 20 per ad, then it effectively becomes bumping - "T1 gone - B7 back on the market - A3 on hold" etc. Maybe 4-5 mouthpieces at a time is reasonable.

"The forum is not responsible for the contacts between private people and how they decide to conduct (or not) the sale."

That is really essential. Mods shouldn't be drawn into transaction conflicts.
 

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Grafton alto | Martin Comm III tenor
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But, if there is a large number like 20 per ad, then it effectively becomes bumping - "T1 gone - B7 back on the market - A3 on hold" etc. .
This is the way it currently is, exactly to stop that kind of bump. Otherwise it is unfair on the peo0ple selling just one item.


"The forum is not responsible for the contacts between private people and how they decide to conduct (or not) the sale."

That is really essential. Mods shouldn't be drawn into transaction conflicts.
Again, already in place.
 

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Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2014
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I usually list things in waves so the one item per month might be a bit limiting.
 

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Discussion Starter #7

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Milandro makes some very good points particularly regarding vendors.
But alas I feel it is in vain as vendors seem to be the chosen few on SOTW who don’t seem to be governed by any restrictions.
There are others who hide under the guise of a private seller but are listing numerous items on an almost daily basis.
The majority of people selling the occasional item are not the issue here, yet they are the ones who the restrictions affect most.
 

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Some good points here, I'll look forward to members' comments.
Here are my thoughts on the marketplace:

1. Not being able to bump an ad at all is a little excessive IMO. I don't see anything wrong with a gentle once-per-week "Hey this is still available, thanks" sort of post. It can take months to sell a horn worth several thousand dollars sometimes...

2. Not allowing replies to the posts from other members. I have seen a few posts in just the past 2 weeks where I saw things that were listed incorrectly and there was no way to post on it to say so. I did report one of the posts though for an incorrect model description, but not sure if it was ever corrected or not. If you're going to rely on people to report "misleading" ads, then you may as well let us police that ourselves and allow members to report "overzealous" posters whose criticisms are harsh or just not true. Either way a mod has to get involved right?

3. I don't see what's wrong about someone who has a drawer full of mouthpieces selling them all in one ad. We know who the dealers here are and who isn't.

Here's my overall point. Changing the rules for EVERYONE because of (maybe) 3-4 people who cause the problems is what they'd do at my work, and it makes the experience less enjoyable for the 99% of us who follow the rules. Deal with the people causing the problems and let the rest of us alone.
 

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Buyer beware. Just leave it alone.
I don’t see a problem with a little bumping but I did see a thread with a guy selling a beater SBA who kept posting the same price, then a $100 less a bunch of times. Then the open to offers.
Sometime you’re stuff just isn’t worth what you think it is and you have to accept it.
 

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In my opinion the vendors obvious advantage (do they pay for that type of access?) and the inability to comment on for sale threads are the real problem.

Since we can’t comment in the for sale threads.....people are going to get ripped off or items get misrepresented. We had a self policing policy in place. If your description is wrong, people will flame you. Pretty simple.

I preferred the old system by far. These regulations have seemed to muck up the works just for the sake of having rules.

It’s a public forum....let it be public and people’s problems are their own. I never saw why admins were ever involved. It’s a sale between two parties....SOTW has no involvement.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I never saw why admins were ever involved. It’s a sale between two parties....SOTW has no involvement.
And that’s precisely why there is no comment allowed because if you do THEN it becomes the forum business BECAUSE there is adiscussion (which needs policing by definition on fora).

Let the Buyer be the judge whether to enter a deal or not. Only selling a counterfeit or theft item should require attention and sanctioning
 

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The discussion is the forum’s business. Not the sale.

Would SOTW ever be held legally liable? I’m not a lawyer, but I don’t see how they would. All SOTW does is connect the parties involved.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I am afraid that that has not worked, not only, we saw ( in recent times) plenty of retaliatory posts by people whom were referring to things and feuds which had happened elsewhere on the forum, and often referring to previous grudges which brought to bickering and I say you say and so on.

I have never seen a classified ad anywhere with a discussion.

The point has to be, you like it? You buy it. You don’t like it? You don’t buy it. It’s a private matter, a transaction, between consenting adults ( although sometimes I wonder on how adult some people are).

Straightforward and simple
 

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Let the Buyer be the judge whether to enter a deal or not.
That is irresponsible. Many buyers don’t know what they are looking at. I’ve had more than one respected seller try to rip me off under “you don’t know what you are talking about, I’m the expert” only for me to prove the expert(s) wrong.

The collective consciousness of the forum helps the weed out these problems when people comment on threads.
 

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Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru
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Discussion Starter #16
Many buyers don’t know what they are looking at.

Then they shouldn’t buy anything from anyone whom they don’t know or trust

Again, members are adults and are supposed to make adults choices. Buy ONLY from people whom you trust if you cannot trust yourself to be the judge of what you buy.
 

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Then they shouldn’t buy anything from anyone whom they don’t know or trust.
We are dealing with specialty equipment where the collective consciousness is an advantage. The forum could choose to inherently protect its members, ignore or ban the troublemakers....but we seem to be leaving people on an island of ignorance because of bumping or petty arguments of a few.

That is unfortunate when we have a collective wealth of knowledge at our fingertips.
 

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Forum Contributor 2016, Distinguished SOTW Member
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Here are my thoughts on the marketplace:

1. Not being able to bump an ad at all is a little excessive IMO. I don't see anything wrong with a gentle once-per-week "Hey this is still available, thanks" sort of post. It can take months to sell a horn worth several thousand dollars sometimes...

2. Not allowing replies to the posts from other members. I have seen a few posts in just the past 2 weeks where I saw things that were listed incorrectly and there was no way to post on it to say so. I did report one of the posts though for an incorrect model description, but not sure if it was ever corrected or not. If you're going to rely on people to report "misleading" ads, then you may as well let us police that ourselves and allow members to report "overzealous" posters whose criticisms are harsh or just not true. Either way a mod has to get involved right?

3. I don't see what's wrong about someone who has a drawer full of mouthpieces selling them all in one ad. We know who the dealers here are and who isn't.

Here's my overall point. Changing the rules for EVERYONE because of (maybe) 3-4 people who cause the problems is what they'd do at my work, and it makes the experience less enjoyable for the 99% of us who follow the rules. Deal with the people causing the problems and let the rest of us alone.
I agree with everything posted by buddy lee. I saw nothing wrong with the old Marketplace. The only change I saw needed was a disclaimer that the moderators don't get involved in private sales. I have seen quite a few ads in the last couple weeks where I wanted or needed to comment to be interested. Like adding a picture to the listing or a question I had. Instead I couldn't and instead of PMing I just shrugged and ignored it. PMing is usually something I do when I am about to pull the trigger. Commenting on a thread I do if I just have a casual interest.
 

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Forum Contributor 2016, Distinguished SOTW Member
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Also...... I think limiting the selling to one item a month is ridiculous. Many of us hoard mouthpieces for years and then decide in a moment of clarity that we have to sell a bunch. It is hard for us to sell and let go of these pieces. At least doing it all at once gets it over with quick for us............
 

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Discussion Starter #20
well any limit ( 1....100?) is arbitrary and this is not reverb, ebay, or craiglist.

as for sharing knowledge, we have the rest of the forum where to discuss and or obtain wisdom, the marketplace is not the place for discussion which will inevitably brings to bickering which inevitably bring to moderation and therefore involvement.
 
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