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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Sax material meanderings mostly tend to be incestuous from what I've read posted, like the universe revolves around the Sax or something, so take a look at some other instruments where Acoustic Science has found that material does matter.

http://www.guitarengineer.com/index_files/Page578.htm

http://www.guitarengineer.com/index_files/Page2240.htm

Then take a look at some Acoustic Science that can't seem to find much material influence on the sound, and there are others like Bernade, Scavone, etc etc who are all independent researchers and operators who come to basically the same conclusion.

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/saxacoustics.html

In all cases, Science is Science and Acoustic Science doesn't change the rule book just for a Sax and Acoustic Science doesn't make it up as it it goes along, so what Acoustic Science finds is what they find, whether it's a Guitar or a Sax or a Kazoo or whatever.

Acoustic Science finds material influences on the sound of a Guitar but Acoustic Science can't find significant material influences on the sound of a Sax with enough certainty to write a paper on it.

If an Acoustic Scientist could find material influences on the sound of a Sax, then they would have no hesitancy writing a paper on it.

So there you go.

Guitar, Yes.

Sax, Most probably No.

Of course there are some beings who can detect sounds that Science can't like this Dude and apparently some SOTW members.

 

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If I think a silver neck helps me play in some way, thereby influencing the way I sound, the case is closed. Since when does Big Science have a damn thing to do with the completely subjective art of playing a musical instrument and relishing the acoustic properties of certain materials/combinations of materials in the instruments? A Strad violin of Bakelite is going to be indiscernible from a real one? Really? A sax mouthpiece of plaster is going to sound like one of silver? A sax made of plastic is going to sound like a Grafton? :)
Material matters. To the player. The only one who counts. Nobody else gives a damn.
 

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As any real scientist will readily admit there is much about their chosen field that still has to be studied. Particularly in light of the advances in the field of particle physics and behaviour of matter, dark matter at different energy states.
 

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As any real scientist will readily admit there is much about their chosen field that still has to be studied. Particularly in light of the advances in the field of particle physics and behaviour of matter, dark matter at different energy states.
That would generally only be idealistic young scientists. Most are mostly conderned about them getting the credit so they get the next job and the most prestige. and with those also usually comes some money. They all have an agenda of advancing themselves and their careers.

I will admit there are some exceptions but for the most part i think that is true.

I should probably qualify that with how i formed that opinion but i wont so blast away.
 

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A Strad violin of Bakelite is going to be indiscernible from a real one?
Even if such a thing existed, i don't think there would be an argument as violins aren't woodwind and the science already acknowledges that materials do make a big difference with stringed instruments but does not (yet) acknowledge the same for woodwind.

Material matters. To the player.
To some players but not others

Nobody else gives a damn.
Companies selling instruments and mouthpieces seem to care (apart from Buescher in the old days)
 

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Material matters. To the player. The only one who counts. Nobody else gives a damn.
Except those whose sales figures are dependent upon the notion - and even they can't agree on what the supposed difference is.
 

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Nice to see Mr Howard here, I really enjoyed your article on materials. And I do agree, knowing the huge difference between two supposedly identical horns, even if the material could change a thing, the "background noise" is much too important to conclude anything.
note also, the vibratosax, which is made of plastic, really sounds like a saxophone. the difference, if any, is really subtle between it and a metal sax. The difference between different metal saxes might exist, but is likely to be even more subtle.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
The thing is, that what most experienced Guitar players think they hear when playing with different materials, the Acoustic Science has also seemed to have found.

So putting it loosely, Guitarists and Acoustic Science don't have too much to differ on.

But head over to the Sax world, and it's pretty different.

Acoustic Science hasn't been able to definitely pin down Sax/Clarinet etc material affects on the sound, in the same way it has with the Guitar for instance, so it would seem that any material effect that does exist is so small that it doesn't really matter.

Some Sax and Wind Instrument players don't accept this for some reasons, which is pretty different from most Guitar players.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I'm not trying for a perfect explanation here but

Guitar strings are at high tension and are coupled to the wood and when the string is struck (or bowed) it induces vibrations in the wood which feedback and affect the strings vibration, therefore moderating how the string vibrates and therefore the sound or tone.

The Sax is a totally different ballgame, with a vibrating column of air induced in the inside of a Sax with the Sax's body being a container for this vibrating air.

There is no high tension string/wood feedback effects like there are with the Guitar.

The feedback from any induced vibrations in the Brass (or whatever) is so small from measurements that it doesn't have much effect on the vibrating air column and therefore does not seem to alter the tone in a noticeable way.

Any variable that can alter the vibrating air column inside the Sax, can have an effect on the sound, and this includes the inside dimensions, the toneholes, inside edges and of course the player.

There is also the material structure, and on a Guitar it is a wood and wood can have a variable structure from species to species and tree to tree and what part of the tree it was cut from and the age of the tree etc etc, and Guitar wood contains all of these variables.

http://courses.physics.illinois.edu...ill_Drew_Beeson_P199pom_Fa07_Final_Report.pdf

From what I've read, the structure of Brass or hard rubber can vary but I would assume that it is nowhere near the variance of wood structures, so if that is the case, then if there were any noticeable effects induced by Brass or hard rubber materials on the Sax's sound, then a lot of players would have it in a sort of similar way and therefore it could be Id'd much easier by Acoustic Science (if it did exist in a noticeable way) then in the case of wood.

In other words, it should be easier to ID material effects on Saxophones then on Guitars because wood has more variance in structure (I assume) and Brass should have a sort of more constant signature (footprint) that could be picked up more easily.
 

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And the stones?
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Yeah, I do like the Stones.

Keef can't play like a virtuoso but he has a certain feel and can write a good tune.
 

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THE HIPPOI ATHANATOI were the immortal horses of the gods. The majority of these divine steeds were offspring of the four Wind-Gods who themselves were said to draw the chariot of Zeus in the shape of horses. (http://www.theoi.com/Ther/Hippoi.html)

In other words, there's no killing this horse...
If a horse is immortal, does that mean there is a point in beating it forever?
 

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IMO, even in the case of stringed instruments, the difference is subtle. The cardboard box bass tells me that it might just be possible that materials is much ado about nothing, considering the other variables. If they can get a box to play this well, then what could the difference really amount to between oak and pine?

 

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Whilst practicing today, I put my finger lightly on various parts of the mpce and the neck and body felt for vibrations while playing at vaious levels

Mpce vibration I can feel really easily on the beak and the taper over the neck at any volume. Body of mpce was less evident and seemed to have nodes that were easier to feel.

Neck by mpce vibrates a lot but down at neck tenon very hard to feel. Body at some spots apparent but not at others. Bell vibrtes like crazy on bell notes. FF was enough to rattle a neck chain hung over bell...have to play early Lester style :)

On a Brilly Personaline HR, silver Gloger neck, JK Shadow alto, Hemke 3 reeds
 
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