[Captain Beeflat]

A friend has bought a 1926 Martin alto with screw in pads.
I have never before seen this system, & somewhat surprisingly, never heard of it.
The system would appear to be original as it has seemingly original white pads.
The pad cups incorporate a vertically mounted, centrally located, internally threaded tube. The pads have small central holes (a la Buescher) which fit over the tube & are secured by a simple raised head set screw.
Having no resonators to spread the load, it seems a pretty horrid system.
The horn will require re-padding...so, some questions if I may:-
1/ Is this system as bad as it appears?
2/ It is considered barbarism to grind out the spuds from the vastly superior Buescher system...do the same ethics apply here?
3/ Are the original type pads still available?
3/ If retained, could Buescher "Snap in" pads be substituted for the originals?

It really does seem a ghastly system for several reasons, but were it mine, to retain a degree of originality I would be tempted to fit Buescher pads, resonators & longer set screws (to accommodate the resonators)...with a gob of Loctite applied to the screw threads.
Unlike the positively located Snaps on the Buescher there is nothing in this Martin system to prevent the screws from loosening....no spring washers, no lock nuts....nothing.

Advice would be appreciated.

 

[Captain Beeflat]

Has no-one encountered this pad system?

 

[Stephen Howard]

I've not seen this system on a Martin - but it sounds a lot like that which is used on the Grafton acryllic alto.
The Grafton has reflectors though, each with a recess for the screw head.

I wouldn't be too concerned about the screws coming out - it would appear that most (if not all) are present on the horn...so they must have hung in there for quite some time.
Perhaps some Selmer-type or Premium Deluxe reflectors will work if you remove the rivet - they should cope with anything up to a 7mm diameter head.

Regards,

 

[Captain Beeflat]

Many thanks Stephen.
What surprises me is that no-one appears to have seen this system....
unlikely as a one off.

 

[csax]

It has come up in the past - click on this link - but does seem to be exceedingly rare. Maybe Martin made a few prototypes to emulate Bueschers snap-ins, but then thought "Nah..."

 

[Captain Beeflat]

Thank you cmelodysax...I guessed that if anyone knew, it would be you. Clearly you have an extensive archive to provide the reference.
I would agree with you that the most likely answer is "a few prototypes".
I shall advise my friend to fire up his grinder prior to installing standard, shellacked, pads.

 

[milandro]

like flute pads, I thought that also other brands had this kind of arrangement

 

[Graysax]

I had an extensive post on this awhile ago here - http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showth...crew-in-Pads&highlight=graysax+martin+soprano

Most of the pics and links are dead now - however I uploaded the 70 pics of the project including some nice photos of the pads to my facebook page here - http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.233764656672815.54183.122896667759615&type=3

 

[clarnibass]

The pads have small central holes (a la Buescher) which fit over the tube & are secured by a simple raised head set screw.

Is it like flute pads, with the screw holding the pads in place, but nothing but the screw head supporting the pad? How about adding flat resonators as shims between the screw heads and the pads? Are the screws not long enough to accomodate even for very thin flat resonators?

1/ Is this system as bad as it appears?

I've never seen it, but if nothing but (small?) screw heads hold the pads in place, and especially with "normal" pads, seems like it's not so good. I'd consider (though not necessarily) keeping the system, use glue/shellac behind the pads to prevent those critical air gaps, use the most accurate thickness pads and correct amount of glue, use a shim (e.g. flat reso) between screw heads and pads, and adjust normally.

2/ It is considered barbarism to grind out the spuds from the vastly superior Buescher system...do the same ethics apply here?

IMO it's not and also not for the Buescher, as long as there are good reasons to do it, and sometimes there are. If it's relevant, maybe grinding them will make the instrument lose its apeal to a Martin-fanatic as a "prototype" or rare model...? Same as having original snaps for Buescher sometimes affects resale/value and sometimes doesn't at all.
I'd definitely consider grinding if that was the best way to achieve the best result.

3/ Are the original type pads still available?

I don't know but what is unique to the original pads? Is the hole bigger? You can make bigger holes. Are they white? You can get white pads. Do they have a different back to offer support without glue? Is there anything unique to them that isn't possible to find with "normal" pads (possibly with a bit of changes)?

 

[Captain Beeflat]

Of course it is possible to fit longer screws with resonators just as it is possible to make holes of the correct diameter in propitiatory pads....but is it worth the trouble on such a crude & limited system?
I think not.
The Buescher "Snap In" pads is a different story...a well designed, simple, easy to operate & heat free system.
In my opinion the only reason for not using Snap In pads in the appropriate Buescher is the regrettable case where some well intended hooligan has previously ground out the spuds.
Having said that, I shudder at some of the "improvements" I performed on now valuable Vintage Cars when they were inexpensive & ubiquitous....I did not wish to recommend butchering a valuable & rare horn.

 

[averageschmoe]

The Leblanc system horns have screw in pads with washers. If it was my horn I'd grind away and pad it like a normal saxophone. For a customer I would default to the original design.

 

[Mark Fleming]

This sounds like the system used on the Leblanc contrabass clarinet. I used white Roos already center punched by Music Medic without a problem and without shellac. I was terrified of losing a screw. Some of the older thread pitches, especially French, are no longer available and a replacement screw has to be machined from tiny bar $tock. If a standard size and length, I'd be tempted to get some pan-head stainless machine screws and order resos when I ordered the pads.

When I rebuilt mine, I found that the shims were made of card stock from ZigZag and Gualoise cigarrette packages. The tech just used the materials on his bench.

Mark

 

[clarnibass]

Someone recently posted some photos on a repair forum of this Martin. I'm not sure if it's simialr to the one from the OP. In the OP it sounded more like it is a system for holding the pads. Here the pads sort of half-float and they are a little domed, very thin with metal backs.

 

[VintageSaxGuy]

I shall advise my friend to fire up his grinder prior to installing standard, shellacked, pads.

Why?

It seems odd to me that someone would recognize a sax as being rare, and then advise someone to butcher it.

If they either just really want a normal pad setup...or can't appreciate what they have, they should sell the sax to someone who will appreciate it (and preserve it) and use that money to buy a regular Handcraft alto from somewhere else.

 

[Beer Can]

I have an alto like this. would love to have it work properly.

 

[paulwl]

It is considered barbarism to grind out the spuds from the vastly superior Buescher system...do the same ethics apply here?

I would say no because most 20s Martins don't have this system.

Another reason might be that Martins don't have the following Bueschers have. But that's not a very good reason.

 

[newsax]

I agree with vintagesaxguy...

 

[Captain Beeflat]

I would say no because most 20s Martins don't have this system.

Another reason might be that Martins don't have the following Bueschers have. But that's not a very good reason.

Thanks Paul.
As a fierce advocate of the Buescher Snap-In system I am in a difficult position here, advising someone to do the equivalent of the barbaric "spud grind".
This Martin system was, in my view, a one-off failed experiment & I wonder how it escaped from Martin's experimental department.
Lacking metal backs to it's original pads it had little chance of working in the real world.

 

[jicaino]

Thanks Paul.
As a fierce advocate of the Buescher Snap-In system I am in a difficult position here, advising someone to do the equivalent of the barbaric "spud grind".
This Martin system was, in my view, a one-off failed experiment & I wonder how it escaped from Martin's experimental department.
Lacking metal backs to it's original pads it had little chance of working in the real world.

Seeing your position on Conn's Microtuner (wich I share) and on this one... I don't think you need to revise this, I do think you need to open up your mind on the no glue snap in pads and such :twisted:

 

[Captain Beeflat]

Seeing your position on Conn's Microtuner (wich I share) and on this one... I don't think you need to revise this, I do think you need to open up your mind on the no glue snap in pads and such :twisted:

Big difference, jicaino, is that the Buescher system works.
I have always found the Snap-Ins to be a good system...I have never had any problem with setting them up as designed and intended.
This Martin system was a try-on &, to my mind, a no hoper from the start....ask yourself why it did not take off & become as popular as the excellent Buescher system.
As one who manufactures snaps (and spuds?),you should be the first to agree with me. :evil: