[Fredl]

Am new to this forum, but having bought 2 (Malerne) AIRFLOW, 1 CARL FISHER and finally 1 "Ditta Giglio Alfredo Santoni" which looked all alike, I began to wonder, which company was manufacturing these instruments.
I checked if there were still any instrument makers at the village of Paré, Italy, and found only one company, namely BULGHERONI, a maker of wood instruments, i.e. clarinets, oboes, bassoons etc.. I sent a mail to them and the reply of them will make you wonder. In essence it says, that the company (= ditta) "Giglio" supplied Malerne and others with saxophones, not the other way round. So I understand, that Malerne had definitely no own sax-production.

This is a copy of the mail to and from Messrs. Bulgheroni

---Ursprüngliche Nachricht--- (Original message)
Von: "F.lli Bulgheroni" <[email protected]>
An: [email protected]>
Betreff: Re: Saxophones
Datum: 30. Nov 2011 11:45
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Luigi Bulgheroni was one of the Ditta Giglio co-owner, like Alfredo Santoni.
At the end of ' 60 years Luigi left the Ditta Giglio to begin his own business in the wooden instruments, follow some years later from his
sons Giacomo and Sergio.
The ditta Giglio closed in the 1975 and A. Santoni was the last owner.
Concerning the Malerne Paris, the ditta Giglio has supplied the instruments to them.

----- Original Message -----
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 1:06 AM
Subject: Saxophones

Sir,

There is a big mystery in the worlwide community of saxophone players regarding saxophones branded


Ditta Giglia by Alfredo Santoni & Co

According to an article I just read in your history, I suppose, that your firm was previously named "Ditta Giglia", is this correct?
Then, who was Alfredo Santoni? Was it just a branding name?
And who was producing the saxophones? Were they ordered from Malerne, Paris? Because all stencils built by Malerne look alike.

Your answer would be greatly appreciated and published in the german blog "Saxwelt.de"

Thanking you in advance I remain

Yours Sincerly
XXXXXXXXX

Hopefully this clarifies some od the old mystery.
Fred

------

 

[artstove]

I had a Malerne stencil tenor that was made in Italy, and some of the details were identical to a Rampone horn. There's a thread about it somewhere; I'll see if I can find it.

 

[artstove]

Here are photos of the one I had: http://forum.saxontheweb.net/album.php?albumid=258

 

[milandro]

I think Malerne bought Rampone too (as well as have made some of their own!) but your information of the Giglio Santoni of Parè is very good and solves the mystery around this company!

Notably Jan Garbarek plays on a curved soprano A.Santony Parè Como!

I am quite sure that Malerne made their own horns as well as having bought some elsewhere. Italy was until the '70 the equivalent of Taiwan today and companies such as Rampone & Cazzani, Alfonso Rampone, Giglio-Santoni, Desidera, Orsi e Borgani sold many horns to many companies all over the world.

 

[Fredl]

I have got an Orpheum Tenor with the Rampone bell-brace and "Malerne"-keywork. I agree with you that Malerne has bought from other suppliers as well, but I have found no proof so far that they had an own sax-production. Then I have a "La Margue" alto, which is an exact copy of the Santoni sax, the same stands for the "AIRFLOW" - saxes. For me the ORPHEUM looks like a double stencil: Body from Rampone, keywork from Santoni and sold by whom?

 

[milandro]

more and more evidence of this

 

[JayeLID]

MMMM....but as has been noted before, there are differences between most Santonis and Malernes. You can see it right in the pics you just provided.

No doubt the companies shared parts suppliers - little doubt they shared body suppliers (Santoni and Malerne bodies are often identical with exception of bellpiece, which sometimes was identical and sometimes not (Santonis show up with a wider bell at times). Oftentimes these other "made in Italy" of "France" stencil horns which appear (some shown in old Saxpics library) have those bodies too.

But "evidence"....to me, would be something indicating identicality. There is no identicality.

I agree with, and actually preferred, your slightly older supposition that many S. European sax brands likely shared suppliers for parts, with horns likely assembled at separate facilities. Thus you get horns marked France or Italy which have many similar specs.

But in order to confidently claim Malernes were 'stenciled' by someone else...is to state that the horns were made completely (or almost completely) in another company's facility. There is no concrete proof of this. We would need, along the lines of what you mention in the CE Winds thread, something evidencing this beyond comparison pics of old horns.

We know Santoni had a factory. We know Malerne had a factory. We know the sax attributes of both makers are similar in spec when one compares the horns (but not identical, and usually their differences being in more than a couple of details). We know certain familiar keywork details and body details pop up on French and Italian stencil-name saxophones of that era, with regularity.

So it could be Malerne never produced sax parts, nor assembled saxes.

Or it could be that Malerne did produce sax parts and assembled saxes.

Or it could be Malerne never produced sax parts, but did assemble sourced parts.

An interesting herring tossed into this is a sax which member Googledoro shared with me, a "Malerne Master" (pic). It has the usual body, with serial # running vertically....MOST of the typical keywork (palm keys, side keys, upper stack) BUT some different lower stack design (the F# armature, i.e.), different spats, and a COMPLETELY different and totally 'modern' table which never appeared on either Santoni nor Malernes before.

Was it made somewhere else entirely ? Would Santoni have used such a (good) pinky table and add'l 'advanced' details on a Malerne stencil and never have used it on their other horns ? Because the differences of the inclusion of this new table significantly changed the post layouts on the body, and the F# keycup armature now has adjustment screws. Yet I have never seen this table nor the aforementioned details before on a Santoni, Malerne, nor any other S. Euro-ascribed instrument.

Maybe you....or someone...has seen more of these....?

 

[milandro]

would Santoni have done the same for Malerne as they apparently did for Buffet?

Who knows?They are gone.

Bulgheroni could solve the riddle but they have never answered me.

 

[JayeLID]

Myeah that's too bad....some interesting horns left behind, possibly we will never know for sure...

 

[Googolodoro]

MMMM....but as has been noted before, there are differences between most Santonis and Malernes. You can see it right in the pics you just provided.

No doubt the companies shared parts suppliers - little doubt they shared body suppliers (Santoni and Malerne bodies are often identical with exception of bellpiece, which sometimes was identical and sometimes not (Santonis show up with a wider bell at times). Oftentimes these other "made in Italy" of "France" stencil horns which appear (some shown in old Saxpics library) have those bodies too.

But "evidence"....to me, would be something indicating identicality. There is no identicality.

I agree with, and actually preferred, your slightly older supposition that many S. European sax brands likely shared suppliers for parts, with horns likely assembled at separate facilities. Thus you get horns marked France or Italy which have many similar specs.

But in order to confidently claim Malernes were 'stenciled' by someone else...is to state that the horns were made completely (or almost completely) in another company's facility. There is no concrete proof of this. We would need, along the lines of what you mention in the CE Winds thread, something evidencing this beyond comparison pics of old horns.

We know Santoni had a factory. We know Malerne had a factory. We know the sax attributes of both makers are similar in spec when one compares the horns (but not identical, and usually their differences being in more than a couple of details). We know certain familiar keywork details and body details pop up on French and Italian stencil-name saxophones of that era, with regularity.

So it could be Malerne never produced sax parts, nor assembled saxes.

Or it could be that Malerne did produce sax parts and assembled saxes.

Or it could be Malerne never produced sax parts, but did assemble sourced parts.

An interesting herring tossed into this is a sax which member Googledoro shared with me, a "Malerne Master" (pic). It has the usual body, with serial # running vertically....MOST of the typical keywork (palm keys, side keys, upper stack) BUT some different lower stack design (the F# armature, i.e.), different spats, and a COMPLETELY different and totally 'modern' table which never appeared on either Santoni nor Malernes before.

Was it made somewhere else entirely ? Would Santoni have used such a (good) pinky table and add'l 'advanced' details on a Malerne stencil and never have used it on their other horns ? Because the differences of the inclusion of this new table significantly changed the post layouts on the body, and the F# keycup armature now has adjustment screws. Yet I have never seen this table nor the aforementioned details before on a Santoni, Malerne, nor any other S. Euro-ascribed instrument.

Maybe you....or someone...has seen more of these....?

Hey, Jaye!

This Malerne still has me thrown for a loop. All of these keywork details are the same as my Noblet Face model tenors. Fanciest pinky tables of any Beagnier built tenors combined with the low B and Bb pivoting from the body tube, not the bell( as the tenor pictured above by Milandro has that typical bell pivot point). Check the number of rollers on the pinky table on my Malerne.

I am recovering well from my open heart surgery, Jaye. I am now able to play sax again without stressing my sternum. I'm heading to the national NAPBIRT convention next week in Illinois. I even got in a few easy ski days.

Willy O

 

[JayeLID]

OK well it's good you still have it, since last I heard you were about to send it to me ...but it never arrived :shock:

In the meantime I did acquire a Malerne Master alto, although at the moment it is packed up as I am moving. But my recollection was the table didn't seem Beaugnier to me, although it was a nice table. But it'll be about a month before my shop is set up again so I'll have to wait and see.

Glad your recovery is going well. Keep in touch.