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Discussion Starter #1
During the overhaul of my 1919 C Melody I broke another spring, and discovered one was missing. It was Saturday... bummer the tech doesn't open shop till Monday for me to purchase a new spring.

My progress was halted so I fiddled with a funny little idea. I got a bunch of assorted paper clips of various thicknesses and found one that fit through the spring hole on the post. I took it out to the bench grinder and anvil, heated up the back end a bit, pounded it flat with a ball peen hammer, and proceeded to carefully grind the other end to a fine point with the bench grinder.

To my delight it installed wonderfully into the sax post. I put the key on, and depressed it, and bummer... the spring just bent down with the key. Then I remembered my engineering lessons and had a facepalm moment.

I took the key back off and adjusted the spring to a position where it would hold the key nicely if it were spring steel. Then I took it back out carefully, and back outside. With a small cup of water nearby, I torched it until it was glowing bright orange and nearly melting, and doused it in the water. I repeated this three times, triple tempering it.

I installed it back into the sax, put the key on, and wallah! The key responds amazingly, nice and tense and springy. Just wanted to share my little discovery... we shall see how it holds up with the test of time....
 

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The water quenching didn't make it brittle? I probably would have use an oil quench, but I never had any engineering lessons.
 

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Sounds like he triple annealed it, rather than tempering it. Annealing actually softens it. To temper it you heat it up to the right colour and then leave it. Tricky to do on small objects. Doing it three times maybe had a simlar effect to tempering.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Bandmommy, yes it did make the spring brittle. I have had a couple courses on this, at the expense of ductility you gain tensile strength and rigidity but the metal also becomes more brittle. Its fine for the application of a sax spring though, its never bent so far that it would snap by the keywork.

And Oric, this wasn't an annealing process you have it a little backwards. Annealing is best done with an ambient type heating like a gas furnace, and it involves a slow controlled cooling process. Tempering is heating the ferrous material to the point of crystalization, and just before recrystalization a quench hardening cooling. It can be water (more extreme hardening) or oil (for a medium temper of sorts).

We loaded plenty of samples in my university Instron machine to confirm the affects of annealing and tempering on ferrous (steel, iron) and nonferrous (we used brass and aluminum) materials.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
We had a little heated discussion on this topic a while back, be prepared for the onslaught...

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?153059-Simple-heat-treatment-process-for-spring
Oh I am sure. I have read through multiple heated discussions on this forum...

Not everyone taking place in these discussions have actually done university quality metallurgy labs with measured Instron data graphed out in excel of stress vs. strain charts using an extensometer and tensile testing... including data sets on rockwell hardness for various samples of aluminum, brass, and steel that went through measured tempering and annealing processes of various degrees.

I realize that once again I am being didactic, but with mechanical Engineering being my career choice as well as my forte, and with one more semester before I graduate, and with all my knowledge gained through technology labs, in addition to my personal success in creating and tempering two saxophone springs that currently function beautifully on my Instrument... My position will be firm.

I know a thing or two about metal.
 

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Oh I am sure. I have read through multiple heated discussions on this forum...

Not everyone taking place in these discussions have actually done university quality metallurgy labs with measured Instron data graphed out in excel of stress vs. strain charts using an extensometer and tensile testing... including data sets on rockwell hardness for various samples of aluminum, brass, and steel that went through measured tempering and annealing processes of various degrees.

I realize that once again I am being didactic, but with mechanical Engineering being my career choice as well as my forte, and with one more semester before I graduate, and with all my knowledge gained through technology labs, in addition to my personal success in creating and tempering two saxophone springs that currently function beautifully on my Instrument... My position will be firm.

I know a thing or two about metal.
You know the buzz words, I'll grant you that. Gimme a freakin' break from the wordspew, please. Yippee, so you made it through "Intro to Materials" lab. I'm glad you had the experience but please don't assume you "know" metal. There are actually a few of us here that know metal for a living (with Ph.D.s in the field).
 

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You know the buzz words, I'll grant you that. Gimme a freakin' break from the wordspew, please. Yippee, so you made it through "Intro to Materials" lab. I'm glad you had the experience but please don't assume you "know" metal. There are actually a few of us here that know metal for a living (with Ph.D.s in the field).
I will never give you a break Dr. G :twisted:. Please do not assume the title of a course someone else has taken, Intro to Materials was waaaaay earlier and less in depth because it covered composites as well. This class and its affiliated lab was called "Metallic Materials: Heat Treatment."

Also pay closer attention to anothers wording... I said I know a thing or two about metal. I did not say "I know metal."

Also rather than bashing me please try to stay on topic and contribute to the post... what do those few with PHD's say on the subject?
 

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Also pay closer attention to anothers wording... I said I know a thing or two about metal. I did not say "I know metal."
Fair 'nough, Danny. What two things about metal did you learn? :twisted:

Also rather than bashing me please try to stay on topic and contribute to the post... what do those few with PHD's say on the subject?
We contributed in depth to the previous thread on the topic. Find it using the Search function.

Bottom line: You don't need a lab to make springs well. You just need to choose the appropriate steel and use the appropriate heat treat. A small bench top air furnace can be real useful. Color is everything.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
We contributed in depth to the previous thread on the topic. Like tools? Use the Search function instead of being so belligerent.
Bottom line: You don't need a lab to make springs well. You just need to choose the appropriate steel and use the appropriate heat treat. A small bench top air furnace can be real useful. Color is everything.
Yes I read that thread entirely, did you not notice that simso linked to it here in this thread? Kinda makes the search function a little redundant :tsk:

You do realize that I already understand you don't need a lab to make springs well since I've already done that at home? Your bottom line is valid but once again redundant.
I am trying to convey that one does not even need a bench top air furnace.... I made my springs with a dixie cup of water and a propane torch in about 20 seconds.....

I agree with you that color is everything...

Edit: Changed your post eh? Well the original is in my quote still. I am not offended by you calling me belligerent...
 

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Yes I read that thread entirely, did you not notice that simso linked to it here in this thread? Kinda makes the search function a little redundant :tsk:

You do realize that I already understand you don't need a lab to make springs well since I've already done that at home? Your bottom line is valid but once again redundant.
I am trying to convey that one does not even need a bench top air furnace.... I made my springs with a dixie cup of water and a propane torch in about 20 seconds.....

I agree with you that color is everything...

Edit: Changed your post eh? Well the original is in my quote still. I am not offended by you calling me belligerent...
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ I strongly suspect that you are very young; I too knew everything when I was 21....amazing how much I seem to have forgotten....you certainly have much to learn.
 

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I wish you well, Danny.

G'luck in your endeavors.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ I strongly suspect that you are very young; I too knew everything when I was 21....amazing how much I seem to have forgotten....you certainly have much to learn.
I'll confirm your suspicion and say I'm glad to be 22.

Everyone has a lot to learn at all points in their life, but that doesn't mean that they don't already know a lot about certain things. If that gives the impression that one believes that they know "everything" then so be it.

I wish you well, Danny.
G'luck in your endeavors.
I also wish you well Dr. G,
We'll chat in another post sometime I'm sure:bluewink:
May your endeavors bring you happiness
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I'm all for the home made projects! If it works and you are happy with it, way to go Danny!!
Why thankyou mountainsax! And yes by all accounts I must say it has been a resounding success! My friend who has been playing Bari for about 12 years said the action feels very nice and smooth on the horn up the stacks.

I still have to do the palm keys, side keys, and bell keys and its done!
 

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As I said strap in...

The biggest issue at hand is youve done something that is contrary to the accepted norm. Any deviation from text book heat treatment will bring critics. That being said text book heat treatment is the ideal way when you are dealing with something that is of a critical nature. Sax spring IMO is not one of them.

Next, no disrespect intended Danny, but yes you do come across as a young 22 yr old..
 

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Discussion Starter #20
As I said strap in...

The biggest issue at hand is youve done something that is contrary to the accepted norm. Any deviation from text book heat treatment will bring critics. That being said text book heat treatment is the ideal way when you are dealing with something that is of a critical nature. Sax spring IMO is not one of them.

Next, no disrespect intended Danny, but yes you do come across as a young 22 yr old..
Yes, the accepted norm indeed. I take no disrepect in the fact that I am representative of me!

Online one can pretend to be anything they want... part of the danger with young girls chatting with who they think is another young girl or perhaps a young boy... and planning to meet sometime :yikes!:

I am me and me am I, be it online or in person. An intrepid 22 year old with fancy antique saxophones and a Corvette :whistle:
 
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