Hello, I’ve been playing tenor for a couple of weeks now, and I’m still struggling to get low notes out. I play bass clarinet as my main instrument, so I have a “clarinet” embouchure, which I’m guessing is part of my problem. I can get all of the low notes out except for the low D, which when I play, “warbles” between the fingered note and the D the octave above. When I do manage to get the note out, its so flat it’s a C#. I am not sure what to do, since I have my jaw dropped as much as possible in order to get the note out, but any attempts to make it not so flat either cause the warbling or jump the note up an octave.
Low Notes “warbling”
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Re: Low Notes "warbling"
1. It's normal to struggle with low notes on sax. If you remember when you first started on clarinet getting low F and G were hard at first then it came along. The embouchure is different.
2. It's more about opening your throat and "blowing warm air" than dropping your jaw. Dropping the jaw can make it easier but it's bad technique.
3. Get the horn checked for leaks. No matter how good you are it will break up or warble on low notes if there's even a tiny leak somewhere.
Disclaimer: I'm just a hacker at sax and not a pro or teacher. You'll get lots more advice but I think the things I said above will be repeated in one form or another over and over. There's a lot more about sax embouchure I'm still working on myself. Someone will fill in on that part.
1. It's normal to struggle with low notes on sax. If you remember when you first started on clarinet getting low F and G were hard at first then it came along. The embouchure is different.
2. It's more about opening your throat and "blowing warm air" than dropping your jaw. Dropping the jaw can make it easier but it's bad technique.
3. Get the horn checked for leaks. No matter how good you are it will break up or warble on low notes if there's even a tiny leak somewhere.
Disclaimer: I'm just a hacker at sax and not a pro or teacher. You'll get lots more advice but I think the things I said above will be repeated in one form or another over and over. There's a lot more about sax embouchure I'm still working on myself. Someone will fill in on that part.
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I was having this same problem on Alto after recently returning from a multi year break. After trying many things I found that changing the angle of my air stream into the mouthpiece by shortening my neck strap fixed the problem right away. That may not be your problem, but I tried many things before I found something that worked for me.
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If you're dropping your jaw to the extent you're getting a low C# to speak when fingering a low D, I'd say you have some horn issues........leaking pad(s), cork(s) missing to create minor leaks, etc. I'd get the horn checked out to make sure things are working the way they should before proceeding any further.
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Re: Low Notes "warbling"
Yes given a clarinet embouchure the lower notes on a Tenor could be difficult....but before we conclude this....make sure the sax has been checked and everything is in good working order as far as its ability to speak up and down cleanly.
For me this is #1. Are you sure the horn is leak-free ?
Yes given a clarinet embouchure the lower notes on a Tenor could be difficult....but before we conclude this....make sure the sax has been checked and everything is in good working order as far as its ability to speak up and down cleanly.
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Well, low notes warbling is generally a sign of a leak higher up in the horn. Sometimes a leak in the tenon because it's not tight enough. However that usually affects the bellkey notes. In the old days some players would drop a mp cap down into the bell but it was just a quick fix during a gig. Like others have already said if it's not your embouchure, which it could be given your Clarinetist habits, I would get it checked for leaks. Either take it to a tech or DIY with a leak light. They're easy to make with a strip of LEDs from Ikea.
Super Action 80 Tenor, Buescher 156 Tenor, Yamaha Vito YAS-21 , Kessler Soprano, Superba II Bari
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I also agree getting your horn checked for leaks. What type of saxophone are you playing, and what is your mouthpiece/reed setup? There can be an equipment issue as well. The latter can usually be fixed by changing reed strength.
You didn't mention your setup but I wouldn't advise anything harder than a number 2 starting out, even though you're an experienced clarinet player. If it's too soft then you can buy a 2.5 or 3.
Re: Low Notes "warbling"
I second this completely. Everything I was going to say was here. A private lesson with a saxophone teacher could be very beneficial. One thing that I might add is to relax when you play these low notes. Tightening up will make it much more difficult, especially in regards to your embouchure.
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I have the same problem, and here are my findings. Many have been mentioned.
1. Keep the throat relax, round and open.
2. Make sure there is no leak.
3. Relax the lip but can’t be too relaxed; needs to be just right.
4. Test the position of the lip and find the best position.
5. Have good air support.
6. Try a softer reed, and also different brand. I am a believer in matching the reed, the player and mouthpiece.
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1. Keep the throat relax, round and open.
2. Make sure there is no leak.
3. Relax the lip but can’t be too relaxed; needs to be just right.
4. Test the position of the lip and find the best position.
5. Have good air support.
6. Try a softer reed, and also different brand. I am a believer in matching the reed, the player and mouthpiece.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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What you describe is relevant only to alto. This is because unlike the tenor where the mpc goes straight into the mouth on the horizontal plane, the alto mpc goes in at an angle. If you were to try and play it like a tenor with the mpc and reed flat in your mouth, you'd have to lift the horn way up to get the neck to be horizontal and not angled. Therefore in order to get enough mpc into your mouth to have a good embouchure on alto you have to have the neckstrap pulled up quite far s o the mpc is up much higher in your mought than a tenor mpc would be and your airstream is aimed upward at the reed more than straight ahead. I just recently got hip to this because I played tenor only for a number of years myself and now playing alto again I have found that aside from having a tighter embouchure than on tenor I get much better response playing it as I just described. I don't know if this is "official" "certified" alto technique, but it definitely works for me because it gives me much better, richer, fuller response out of the horn, especially on the low notes.
Re: Low Notes "warbling"
Also, try this to check for a leak. Hold low f fingering. Press and release the G# key. Look towards the middle of the horn and check, are any pads opening and closing when u press the G#. If it is moving, you need to screw that down more, I find this to be a common leak that is my first to check when my low notes aren't coming out right.
Another test to do is squeeze the low note keys and compare it to without squeezing. If there is a noticeable difference between squeezing and not squeezing, there is a leak. You should NEVER have to squeeze the keys to make notes come out. This is only a test. If this is so, get your ax repaired.
Hope this helps
Also, try this to check for a leak. Hold low f fingering. Press and release the G# key. Look towards the middle of the horn and check, are any pads opening and closing when u press the G#. If it is moving, you need to screw that down more, I find this to be a common leak that is my first to check when my low notes aren't coming out right.
Another test to do is squeeze the low note keys and compare it to without squeezing. If there is a noticeable difference between squeezing and not squeezing, there is a leak. You should NEVER have to squeeze the keys to make notes come out. This is only a test. If this is so, get your ax repaired.
Hope this helps
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Practice learning to use Jerry Bergonzi's no-embouchure embouchure which he teaches in workshops. (It's on youtube if you want to see him demonstrate it.)
It goes like this. The tenor embouchure is a relaxed one. You should not be biting or squeezing. It's in fact like sucking your thumb when you were a baby. Do this:
Stick your thumb in your mouth and suck on it in imitation of what a baby does. Notice how your upper teeth are on the top of your thumb but your thumb is sitting on the pad or cushion of your lower lips. Notice that your jaw is natural and the corners of your mouth are closed but not squeezed tightly.
Now stop sucking, take a deep breath from your diaphragm and Blow on your thumb as if you were blowing into a sax. Notice the position of your lips, tongue, teeth etc in relation to your thumb which represents the mouthpiece.
Now do this on your sax. Watch yourself in the mirror doing the above and playing the sax after if you are not sure about how you are doing. It's a natural thing and easy to learn.
Good luck and happy new year.
I had a similar problem with my Weltklang, leaklight and cig paper showed no signs of leaks higher up (didnt have anything to check the neck), and was jyst about to take it in when I noticed that the guard on the low C key was bent, so not allowing the key to open enough. Maybe check that key?
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I noticed some warbling the other day on my Tenor which I am certain is leak free.
It came out of nowhere after about 10 minutes of play time.
The problem was due to the reed losing its seal on the mouthpiece.
Once the moisture got into the reed it swelled enough to break the seal, then the warbling started and the entire range of the horn became difficult.
I pretty much new what the problem was straight away, so it was an easy fix.
That’s what happens when you use a reed that you have been using on a different piece and try to make it work on another.
Sometimes you can get away with it, other times not.
It came out of nowhere after about 10 minutes of play time.
The problem was due to the reed losing its seal on the mouthpiece.
Once the moisture got into the reed it swelled enough to break the seal, then the warbling started and the entire range of the horn became difficult.
I pretty much new what the problem was straight away, so it was an easy fix.
That’s what happens when you use a reed that you have been using on a different piece and try to make it work on another.
Sometimes you can get away with it, other times not.
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Re: Low Notes "warbling"
I feel silly. :faceinpalm: For the past 6 months or so I have been trying to work through a serious gurgle in my low B and low Bb (but mostly B) with a brand new Yany AWO10. I had been on a serious break (about 11-12 years) and I last played on a Yany A991. I had just assumed that my air column was too unstable after so many years and that was the culprit. Therefore, I have been doing some serious long tone practice. However, after seeing a tip in another thread about the pitch of the mouthpiece coupled with the tuning of the horn causing this problem. Like an idiot I hadn't been practicing with a tuner.
Instead I was just pushing my mouthpiece in about 3/4 of the way on the neck and putting off tuner based practice. But after seeing this tip I dug out my tuner and I was playing 30+ cents flat. After tuning, my mouthpiece was so far in that less than 1/8" of cork was still visible, but guess what? You got it, the low notes starting blowing easy. I could sub tone the or play them straight without the gurgle for the first time. In fact the entire horn was playing much better as I was cracking less notes when practicing intervals. Honestly, I had been playing so poorly I was having a hard time practicing more than an hour a day on alto. But today, for the first time my horn was singing like I would expect and I just lost track of time.
So, one tip from this forum that I have confirmed that if you are having a gurgle in your low notes, you might want to dig out your tuner and make sure you embouchure is set to produce the right pitch from your mouthpiece and that it is pushed in far enough so that your horn is playing in tune.
BTW, I think I saw this tip in relation to playing soprano sax, but it also seems to affect alto and probably to a lesser extent tenor and baritone (although I have never had a gurgle on baritone.)
I feel silly. :faceinpalm: For the past 6 months or so I have been trying to work through a serious gurgle in my low B and low Bb (but mostly B) with a brand new Yany AWO10. I had been on a serious break (about 11-12 years) and I last played on a Yany A991. I had just assumed that my air column was too unstable after so many years and that was the culprit. Therefore, I have been doing some serious long tone practice. However, after seeing a tip in another thread about the pitch of the mouthpiece coupled with the tuning of the horn causing this problem. Like an idiot I hadn't been practicing with a tuner.
Instead I was just pushing my mouthpiece in about 3/4 of the way on the neck and putting off tuner based practice. But after seeing this tip I dug out my tuner and I was playing 30+ cents flat. After tuning, my mouthpiece was so far in that less than 1/8" of cork was still visible, but guess what? You got it, the low notes starting blowing easy. I could sub tone the or play them straight without the gurgle for the first time. In fact the entire horn was playing much better as I was cracking less notes when practicing intervals. Honestly, I had been playing so poorly I was having a hard time practicing more than an hour a day on alto. But today, for the first time my horn was singing like I would expect and I just lost track of time. So, one tip from this forum that I have confirmed that if you are having a gurgle in your low notes, you might want to dig out your tuner and make sure you embouchure is set to produce the right pitch from your mouthpiece and that it is pushed in far enough so that your horn is playing in tune.
BTW, I think I saw this tip in relation to playing soprano sax, but it also seems to affect alto and probably to a lesser extent tenor and baritone (although I have never had a gurgle on baritone.)
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Re: Low Notes "warbling"
This raises the question: What causes this "inharmonicity"? Often times it is the "effective volume" of the mouthpiece not being a close match to the volume of the "missing cone". This is why when the mouthpiece is too far off the cork it causes the sax to warble because the "effective volume" is too large. Another cause can be the tightness of the player's embouchure and the shape and volume inside the oral cavity. Sometimes it can be the size of the chamber inside the mouthpiece itself.
Low D on the saxophone is an "under-vented note" which means that it vents through an open tone hole---low C which is then followed by a closed tone hole---low C#. Sometimes when the low C key is not opening enough it can cause the D to be unstable. You can play low D and open the low C# key to see if that improves the note. If that helps, you might try opening the low C key a bit more.
It is also a good idea to check the tightness of your embouchure by playing the mouthpiece alone. The pitch should be no higher than G concert on tenor. Also, playing the mouthpiece and neck apart from the sax should produce an E concert on tenor. I used to think the oscillation I was hearing when there was a "warble" was the note jumping an octave and coming back down. I recorded a warble on low C of a C-melody sax and slowed it way down and heard this: C-Melody Warble Slow You can clearly hear the overtones that are out of tune with each other fighting over who controls the pitch.
The "warbles" I have come across have all been caused by the "inharmonicity" of the note's overtones. What this means is that the first few overtones are not exactly whole number multiples of the frequency of the fundamental. In the lowest notes on a saxophone the strength of the fundamental is weaker than the 1st and 2nd overtones which can get into a "fight" over which controls the pitch of the note.
This raises the question: What causes this "inharmonicity"? Often times it is the "effective volume" of the mouthpiece not being a close match to the volume of the "missing cone". This is why when the mouthpiece is too far off the cork it causes the sax to warble because the "effective volume" is too large. Another cause can be the tightness of the player's embouchure and the shape and volume inside the oral cavity. Sometimes it can be the size of the chamber inside the mouthpiece itself.
Low D on the saxophone is an "under-vented note" which means that it vents through an open tone hole---low C which is then followed by a closed tone hole---low C#. Sometimes when the low C key is not opening enough it can cause the D to be unstable. You can play low D and open the low C# key to see if that improves the note. If that helps, you might try opening the low C key a bit more.
It is also a good idea to check the tightness of your embouchure by playing the mouthpiece alone. The pitch should be no higher than G concert on tenor. Also, playing the mouthpiece and neck apart from the sax should produce an E concert on tenor. I used to think the oscillation I was hearing when there was a "warble" was the note jumping an octave and coming back down. I recorded a warble on low C of a C-melody sax and slowed it way down and heard this: C-Melody Warble Slow You can clearly hear the overtones that are out of tune with each other fighting over who controls the pitch.
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Re: Low Notes "warbling"
I would tighten my embouchure. I personally like the warbling though.
I would tighten my embouchure. I personally like the warbling though.
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Kind of a related question. I usually don't have too much trouble with the lowest notes once I'm warmed up. But in fooling around with producing overtones on the low notes, I've noticed that along with the overtone sometimes an effect, not entirely unpleasant, pops in which I would describe as a "beating" or vibrato-ish effect. Sometimes it can be a very nice and pretty vibrato, better than I'm able to produce on regular non-overtoned notes. Can anyone explain why that happens. Is it at all related to "real" vibrato?
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