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Low Note struggles

6K views 45 replies 20 participants last post by  Typeman 
#1 · (Edited)
Hi guys, I am a sophomore in college and i am in the jazz band. My whole life I was an alto sax player. I was pretty good. I was an all state alto player throughout my high school years. For jazz band this year I decided to switch it up and play tenor. For some reason. When i play any note from about middle g and below, the notes always want to play an octave above and it sounds airy. I gotta play the notes relatively loud for the notes to come out properly but I have to play softly with the section. Almost every time I articulate one of these low notes it plays an octave above. I never had these issues playing alto. Is this something I just have to adjust to because it's a tenor? Or is it a problem with the horn itself? Im using a daddario select jazz mouthpiece, m/o lig, select jazz 3S, super action tenor.

I also add that my alto is a YAS 62

Thanks!
 
#4 ·
Make sure the body octave key is closing properly, the octave mechanism changes from the neck octave pip to the body octave pip between A & B. You may have a spring in the mechanism that has become unseated.

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#6 ·
Make sure the body octave key is closing properly, the octave mechanism changes from the neck octave pip to the body octave pip between A & B. You may have a spring in the mechanism that has become unseated.

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I have a rubber band on the octave mechanism on the neck and theres still issues. Would a rubber band solve this potential problem?
 
#10 ·
Once you have confirmed that there are no leaks in the instrument, these are a couple of diagnostics that may help: 1) make sure the pitch of the mouthpiece alone is no higher than a G concert, 2) see how close the pitch of the mouthpiece and neck is to E concert (F#2 on the tenor). The "voicing" on tenor feels different than on alto. For me it is a more open feeling in the oral cavity. When tonguing, make sure not to raise the back of the tongue since this will "encourage" the octave to sound on notes in a lower register. You might also ask a more experienced tenor player to try your instrument to get their feedback on how the low register responds for them. An exercise I use with my students is to slur quickly from low G down to low C and hold it as long as you can on one breath. Once you learn the "taste" of low C, practice starting on that note with the same embouchure, shape inside the oral cavity, and airstream. Once low C is under control, do the same on low B and Bb.
 
#13 ·
Get the horn looked over before you start going into tongue-twisting and other exercises that may hurt you in the long run. If there are no leaks (and a flash light will NOT do the trick but even a cheap LED ribbon from HomeDepot will work), start practicing playing soft with a relaxed embouchure and your lower lip pushed out to the front, even if it feels a bit weird in the beginning.

And what tip opening is your D'Addario select jazz mouthpiece?
 
#14 ·
Get the horn looked over before you start going into tongue-twisting and other exercises that may hurt you in the long run. If there are no leaks (and a flash light will NOT do the trick but even a cheap LED ribbon from HomeDepot will work), start practicing playing soft with a relaxed embouchure and your lower lip pushed out to the front, even if it feels a bit weird in the beginning.

And what tip opening is your D'Addario select jazz mouthpiece?
I use a d7m with a 3S select jazz reed. I used to use a meyer 5 and it was worse.
 
#15 ·
The 7M is .105". A #3 would probably be ok for an experienced tenor player, but may be too hard for someone new to tenor. I'd start softer and see if that helps you with the low register. If there are no leaks, then you're obviously biting too hard and probably have other embouchure and technique issues.

I hate to be negative, but I'd stick with alto if tenor isn't coming naturally to you. It's going to take a while for you to become a tenor player, and you probably don't have the luxury of time in the jazz band to come up to speed. If your teachers can't help you, maybe the other tenor player could work with you a little to get you on the right track.
 
#37 ·
The 7M is .105". A #3 would probably be ok for an experienced tenor player, but may be too hard for someone new to tenor.
Combo of open facing and somewhat hard reed - totally inappropriate for a new tenor player. And not appropriate for many players, period, although it's the fashion of the day. Joe Henderson played on a Selmer D, that's a .080" facing, with a soft reed. Choose what feels right and works for you.
Worth mentioning also that you can scrape the bottom of the vamp if a reed is hard-blowing, usually one can feel that resistance start with the low D. I would add also that reeds are not often cut symmetrically, and when one side is thicker at the bottom of the vamp, the low register will be harder.
Agree with everyone that a leak somewhere up the stack could be a problem. Also the articulated G# may need adjustment - that's a very common cause of this problem.
 
#16 ·
When i play any note from about middle g and below, the notes always want to play an octave above and it sounds airy.
Unless you simply haven't adjusted your embouchure to tenor, and maybe even if you have, this is a strong indicator of one or more leaks.
Before doing anything else, take the horn to a tech and have it checked out, and the leaks fixed if present (which I highly suspect they are).
 
#17 ·
Well, first thing I echo everyone else, check for leaks. If you don't know how to do this, it's worth this once taking it to the shop.

I will say that a .105" mouthpiece with a #3 reed is a pretty open setup for someone who's never played tenor. I've been playing tenor (and other voices) for 43 years now and I play most of the time on about a .090" piece with a 2.5 reed. Why do you think you need to work so hard?

If you're biting and pinching, using a big open hard-reed setup won't fix that problem. If you learn how to play tenor with a tenor embouchure, tenor-sized breaths, and a tenor-supported airstream, you'll have no trouble with a smaller softer setup and getting good volume out of it.

To finish up, are you on 4th tenor? If you're on that chair, for sure you want to go with an easy-playing setup, as most of the time you're playing low and soft. Personally in big bands I tend to use my old standby Meyer 8 (about .090 or so) on the jazz tenor chair and an old Brilhart Ebolin (I guess about .080?) for 4th tenor. I have a grass-killer Dukoff but only need it for rock and roll.
 
#18 ·
I will say that a .105" mouthpiece with a #3 reed is a pretty open setup for someone who's never played tenor.
I agree with that, especially the relatively hard reed. The reed is likely more of an issue that the tip opening, especially in terms of playing the low register. Still, I strongly suspect a leak, probably more than one leak, is the main problem.
 
#21 ·
I mean... there is some validity to the setup being possibly too much but, more so because of the different embouchure. I played alto more exclusively for years (thought went back and forth; and in high school was more with tenor than alto). What is your alto setup? Note that a lot of alto players play more close tips and hard reeds while tenor is mostly the opposite until you develop the control while loose. Another thing is, unless the leak is too bad, you can blow past it. As in, if you have enough air and diaphragm support. If you are used to the smaller alto tip you will not be able to “fill up” the tenor chamber the same way as there is a difference in making the reed vibrate and filling the mouthpiece/horn. I do think you should get the horn checked out but, I would easily say, even if you stick with the .105, move to a lower strength reed. At the moment, with some experience of alto, I generally suggest no more than a .095 or link style 6* and a 2.5 reed. Technically if you like LaVoz you could try both MS an M reeds and see which you like better but, it would be better to overblow than only reach the minimum required for tone otherwise.
 
#23 ·
For jazz it was an A35 jumbo java with a size 2.25 legere signature. For classical it was a selmer concept with legere signature 2.5.

I switched from a Meyer 5 with a rico 2.5 to my current setup and I find playing low notes to be easier.

I want to emphasize that if I play low notes loud I have no problem doing that. Its when I play soft trying to blend with the sax section is when the notes play an octave high.

Perhaps I am underestimating the difference between tenor and alto and I just need to adjust.
 
#24 ·
Get a 6 or 6* mouthpiece. Also this - coming from alto, I found that a metal (Link) mouthpiece worked better for me because it was a similar size to the hard rubber alto mouthpiece. So the adaptation was easier. I do have a narrow mouth, so that is probably part of the issue for me, but still it's worth a thought. For many years I doubled on alto and tenor in the same shows, so this was a consideration.

I echo the comments of "tenor-sized" breath support and embouchure - this takes a while.
 
#27 ·
I would start softer until it's easy to play, then work your way back up as you build your chops and technique. Or you may not ever need to go back up to harder reeds. Whatever works best for you in all registers at all dynamics.

Keep in mind, this it just a shortcut to instant results, not a long term solution. Chops and technique are the long term solution.
 
#32 ·
I'd agree with getting the leaks taken out first. That might solve all your problems right away. If it doesn't, though, try a softer reed.

My experience was coming from the clarinet, not the alto, but when I started on tenor, I couldn't play a soft setup since I just had no concept of a steady embouchure without a lot of force on the reed. I could pick up an alto and play just fine, since the firmer embouchure was more comfortable to me, but my tenor sound was always pinched and the lower register never spoke well, especially since I insisted on starting with a .110" mouthpiece and 3 or even 3.5 reeds. My friends were all alto players, so the only way to play in the big band with them was to become a tenor player.

Eventually I had to force myself to go to a really soft reed (Java Red #2) and just spend time with it until I could get the upper register to feel stable. It felt like crap initially, like it was a kazoo, but that got better as I got used to it. 15 years later and I am still on reeds in the #2-2.5 range, always with medium open 7* (.105") mouthpieces. Even on more closed mouthpieces, like a Morgan 6C, I rarely go above a 3 and will usually go down to a 2.5 if I want to get a little bit of bite and edge out of it. I'm not playing with a big band these days, but I am definitely a lot louder now on these more conservative setups than I was biting sound out of that bigger tip, harder reed setup.

When I try a harder reed, I definitely don't feel louder these days. Just less controlled. It feels inefficient to me and somehow quieter. Like I'm losing sound to biting.

I have discovered in my adulthood that, once you've got your embouchure fundamentals down, the most advanced embouchure skill is learning to do it with less force. I'll be working on that for the rest of my life.
 
#39 ·
Assuming you have had the horn checked for leaks, whose tenor is it? was is a loaner, or used when you got it? Has it ever been damaged? Sometimes if the horn was damaged/bent the fix makes the horn a slight amount shorter at the damage area thus causing the harmonics to get messed up in the lower register. that can cause the issue you mention. I have a Selmer MKVI which a bar tender dropped of the stage while I was not around, and I sent it to Selmer to fix. Well when it came back completed rebuilt the lower register never spoke cleanly again no matter which mouthpiece I used. A great repair person told me how they fix these bent horns and they actually cut the horn at the bend, then resolder it back together. Unfortunately it often messed up the hole spacing. It can be fixed properly but that can be very expensive and very few repair people even try to do it. Anyway first leaks, then possibly this. I also have a King super 20 tenor which to make the bottom end speak better decades ago we added lead to the bottom curve of the bell by melting it into the bell. That dampened the too bright harmonics thus making the horn be "gentler" down at the bottom. All these things though were done well after a complete inspection and basically are customizations to my horns. Good luck.
 
#41 · (Edited)
Hi All. For whatever it is worth, I have been struggling with the low range on tenor ... forever. No problem on the other saxes.
I just moved from baritone to tenor 2 (or 4, depending on the rules) in one of my bands, and it is THE challenge for me to play that lowest range of the horn. I went as far as switching to a horn known for it's excellent response and smoothness (YTS-62), and I am also moving to a narrower mouthpiece than the Link STM 8* I've been playing for the last decade.
Originally, I come from the clarinet, a very bad embouchure approach for the tenor sax. Playing the baritone for quite some time really helped me to open the throat and relax the embouchure.
Maybe you could work on those overtone exercises where you honk a huge fortissimo low Bb, than move up an octave without octave key, and go down again, just by adjusting the airstream. I started recently, our dog hates it ....
Then the same from B, C, C# and D.
I guess you can find variants on the net. It really helps to build that solid air support, and to control the stream.
 
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