[soybean]

List of B&S brands and stencils (updated May 10, 2010)

It is hard to track B&S saxophones since they made so many names. I'll attempt to list them all. I am not including horns made before 1950 such as Huller. Please add to this list or correct any errors.

B&S named models:
Weltklang
Weltklang Solist
B&S "Blue Label" (not official name)
series 500, student line
series 600, student line
series 1000
series 1000 III
series 2001
series 2001 IV
series 2006 (internal name, not labled as such on saxophones)
Medusa

Stencils made by B&S. Be careful because some were made by more than one manufacturer. For instance Dave Guardala saxophones were built by B&S and Amati.

Dave Guardala New York (based on series 2001)
Codera (series 2001 with different pad system)
Ernie Northway (series 2001)
Schmidt (series 1000)
Antoine Courtois (model 2006)
Allora (some are series 2001 and some are series 2006)
Chicago Jazz Series, aka "CJS", (series 2006)
Accent (some reported similar to CJS)

More stencils, probably from the 1970s or 80s:
Musica
Sonora (only sopranos?)
Meister

These stencils seem to be from the Weltlklang era:
Müller (Weltklang stencil)
Stratos (Weltklang stencil)
Luxor
LaFleur
Trafford
Oxford
Bordeaux
Berg Larsen (saxophones, not mouthpieces!)

Additional Notes:
* "2001" and "2006" are series names, not years.

* The "Dave Guardala" horns designed by Guardala for B&S were based on the 2001 which came out first. Later, B&S made some small improvements in their 2001. This was called Series 2001 IV. There was also a similar improvement in the Series 1000. The final improvements was called the Series 2006. This included the Medusa and it's stencils. The alto in this series is a complete re-design with different bore than the earlier 2001. The tenor was very similar to the 2001 series.

* The B&S stencil "Allora" can be found in the 2001 configuration and the 2006 model. After B&S, Allora saxes were made by Amati. Allora "Big Boss" models are made in Taiwan.

* Some late (post B&S) "Dave Guardala" saxophones were made by Amati. These were high quality.

* I have not seen any Accent saxophones built by B&S although they may exist. There are many for sale on eBay made in China as student instruments.

* Thanks to everyone here who helped with B&S information. This has allowed me to made this update to the original post.
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[soybean]

Re: Interview with B&S manager

Looking in the LA Sax area, I found a German interview done in 2005 with a B&S manager. Here is the English translation (by Google) and the original German. For me, the most interesting thing; he apparently says that what we are calling stencils (i.e. CJS, Courtois, etc) are all separate lines of saxophones and not the same as the B&S branded ones. This does not seem to be borne out by our members experience. He also seems to say that the "stencils" were made for the US market only.

bluesax: the following is an interview published on a german saxophone forum (saxwelt.de) with an official JA Musik GmbH (B&S) Manager made in 2005 concerning the future of B&S saxophone production in Germany:

Q: There is a rumor that B & S has shifted production or even sold the devices, and now B & S saxophones in eg Produces Poland, Taiwan, Red China, Russia or the Czech Republic?

No, Ja Musik GmbH produced in 2005 continues saxophone in Markneukirchen. An outsourcing our Markneukirchner saxophone production there was not and is not currently give. This rumor keeps itself persistent. I hope you hereby resolve to be finite. B & S saxophones have been and are produced in Markneukirchen.

Q: Have they thought about the manufacturing industry moving into the country?

We have studied this into consideration and there have been inquiries in this direction. However, it is so constructed that other manufacturers will preferably use their own devices and parts for saxophones. A production order can not implement the demands that we have at B & S on a saxophone, and also the special sound of the B & S saxophones and to B & S did not reach the quality level achieved. So we could saxophone while shopping with any engraving, but these have nothing in common with the B & S saxophones.

Q: There appear in U.S. names like for example Allora, Chicago jazz, Accent, Courtois ... Are these B & S stencils?

Allora, Chicago jazz, Accent, Courtois ... This list is to continue with Dave Guardala B & S Medusa, B & S Series 2001, B & S Series 1000, or simply B & S. Among all these brands have been or will be made always in Markneukirchen saxophones.

Q: So there are stencils, ie, identical models with different engraving?

No, each of the above trademarks are the independent model series, which also differ dramatically from each other constructional part.

Q: The prices for the former model lines appear in the U.S. by up to 50% decline. These models are manufactured abroad and can therefore be offered so cheap?

No, our saxophones are made in Germany in Markneukirchen. The devices are here and we will be able to offer, starting from a piece of sheet metal to final assembly a product made in Germany. However, we have no influence on the prices at which the saxophones are sold in the U.S.. As their forum member notes a quality product can be purchased at bargain prices, if this is so.

Q: They said in their first reply that made saxophone will continue until 2005. What is 2006?

Allora, Chicago jazz, Accent, B & S Medusa be produced until the end of 2005. Thereafter, the production of this model series has been drastically reduced. From 2006 there will continue our student model B & S Series to give 600th

Q: Hm .. This means that B & S saxophones of the professional class, there will be no more in the future?

First of all, only what is in stock at the dealers. With increasing demand but we are still able to produce in a position of semi-professional and professional saxophone series.

Es geht das Gerücht, das B&S die Produktion verlagert hat oder sogar die Vorrichtungen verkauft hat und nun B&S Saxophone in z.B. Polen, Taiwan, Rotchina, Russland oder Tschechien produziert werden?

Nein, die Ja Musik GmbH produziert auch 2005 weiterhin Saxophone in Markneukirchen. Eine Auslagerung unserer Markneukirchner Saxophonproduktion gab es nicht und wird es derzeit auch nicht geben. Dieses Gerücht hält sich hartnäckig. Ich hoffe es hiermit endlich ausräumen zu können. B&S Saxophone wurden und werden in Markneukirchen produziert.

Haben sie darüber nachgedacht die Produktion in das Ausland zu verlagern?

Wir haben das in Erwägung gezogen und es hat auch Anfragen in dieser Richtung gegeben. Es ist jedoch so, dass andere Hersteller vorzugsweise ihre eigenen Vorrichtungen und Teile nutzen wollen um Saxophone herzustellen. Damit kann aber eine Produktion die Ansprüche, die wir bei B&S an ein Saxophon haben, nicht umsetzen und auch den besonderen Klang der B&S Saxophone und das bei B&S erreichte Qualitätsniveau nicht erreichen. So könnten wir zwar Saxophone mit jedweder Gravur einkaufen, diese aber hätten nichts mehr mit den B&S Saxophonen gemein.

Es tauchen in USA Namen auf wie z.B. Allora, Chicago Jazz, Accent, Courtois ... Sind dies B&S Stencils?

Allora, Chicago Jazz, Accent, Courtois ... Diese Liste ist weiterzuführen mit Dave Guardala, B&S Medusa, B&S Series 2001, B&S Series 1000 oder einfach B&S. Unter all diesen Marken wurden oder werden noch immer in Markneukirchen Saxophone gefertigt.

Es sind also Stencils, also identische Modelle mit anderer Gravur?

Nein, jede der oben aufgeführten Marken sind eigenständige Modellreihen, die sich auch bautechnisch teils drastisch von einander unterscheiden.

Die Preise für die erstgenannten Modellreihen scheinen in den USA um bis zu 50% zu sinken. Werden diese Modelle im Ausland gefertigt und können deswegen so günstig angeboten werden?

Nein, unsere Saxophone werden in Deutschland in Markneukirchen gefertigt. Die Vorrichtungen stehen hier und wir sind in der Lage ausgehend von einem Stück Blech bis zur Endmontage ein Produkt Made in Germany anzubieten. Wir haben jedoch keinerlei Einfluss auf den Preise zu denen die Saxophone in den USA verkauft werden. Wie ihr Forumsmitglied anmerkt kann hier ein Qualitätsprodukt zu Schnäppchenpreisen erworben werden, wenn dies denn so ist.

Sie sagten in ihrer ersten Antwort, dass bis 2005 weiterhin Saxophone gefertigt werden. Was ist 2006?

Allora, Chicago Jazz, Accent, B&S Medusa werden bis zum Ende des Jahres 2005 produziert. Danach wird die Produktion dieser Modellreihen drastisch reduziert. Ab 2006 wird es weiterhin unser Schülermodell B&S Series 600 geben.

Hm... Das heißt B&S Saxophone der Profiklasse wird es zukünftig nicht mehr geben?

Erst einmal nur das was noch bei den Händlern auf Lager ist. Bei steigender Nachfrage sind wir aber weiterhin in der Lage Saxophone der semiprofessionellen und professionellen Serien produzieren zu können.

 

[The A Train]

Re: Interview with B&S manager

Well finally vindication! I had a somewhat 'intense' discussion awhile back with a COURTOIS owner that claimed he owned a MEDUSA because they were identical (he said) just branded differently. I of course did not agree and as written above> "..each of the above trademarks are the independent model series, which also differ dramatically from each other constructional part." So in summation if you own a Coutois or an Allora, etc.,you have a good horn no doubt but it is not NOT a Medusa! I also find it interesting that he points out that they are in a position to re-start professional level sax production should demand dictate it. Cool post, Thanks soybean!

 

[soybean]

Glad you liked it. I wrote it to clear up confusion for myself. Most of this information is already here in the older posts, just not in one thread. The remarks about "independant model series" with "dramatic differences", are interesting and could very well be true. But keep in mind this person worked for the manufacturer. It might not have been good PR to state the that the stencils were as good as the B&S branded saxes. Some of the knowledgeable folks here like Randall think many of the stencils are basically the same except for minor diferences. I don't know. Someone would have to have all of them to compare. I have a Medusa tenor and a newly acquired Allora alto. both seem to be about the same quality. History does back you up in that many manufacturers of musical instruments save their best work for their own name. It makes sense, since those are the horns that will make their reputation.

Lately, I'm wondering about the nickel silver rods and whether they were on all the post-2001 horns.

 

[harmonizerNJ]

Well, I posted already in this thread but I guess that earlier post got lost in the vBulletin 4.0 bit-bucket, so I'll do this again:

Several folks here on SOTW have had one of the "Musica"-branded straight, one-piece soprano saxes. Based on pictures I have seen, they look identical to the B&S straight soprano sax I used to own. I believe these "Musica"-branded straight soprano saxes were a stencil made by B&S.

 

[soybean]

Thanks for that, harmonizerNJ. This is interesting information. I had read that some Musica saxophones were built as stencils by the Amati company. But then again, some of them may have been built by B&S. Does anyone else know about these Musica sopranos? According to the Amati history here on SOTW (http://www.saxontheweb.net/Resources/Amati-History.html) the B&S company and Amati were less than 20 kilometers apart and they often shared parts, etc.

 

[harmonizerNJ]

If you use this google search you will find some threads here on SOTW which discuss B&S and Musica soprano saxes.

musica "soprano sax" "B&S" site:saxontheweb.net

 

[cymru97]

If you use this google search you will find some threads here on SOTW which discuss B&S and Musica soprano saxes.

musica "soprano sax" "B&S" site:saxontheweb.net

I owned one of these sopranos and it was in fact a B&S based on an earlier design, not one of the newer models. Nice horn, but I ultimately ended up with a vintage Conn stencil.

 

[soybean]

Okay, thanks guys. So here are some other names that are probably made by B&S.

These three seem to be similar. Probably from the 1970s or 80s:
Musica
Sonora
Meister

These seem to be from the older Weltlklang era:
LaFleur
Trafford
Oxford
Bordeaux
Berg Larson (saxophones, not mouthpieces!)

 

[Canadiain]

What happened there? I posted last week about Alloras / Guardalas/ Amati etc, and now its gone? Did anyone else see that or am I losing it...


Basically the later Allora "Big Boss" were (allegedly) Taiwan made, its the post B&S late model Guardalas that are Amati made (in Europe).

Also, Ive seen Alloras with both the single and double rod right hand pinky set up, so either 2001 or Medusa like, depending on vintage I guess.

B&S had a very distinctive chunky round bell brace that is a bit of a give away...not to mention "MADE IN GERMANY" by the S/N.

 

[soybean]

Canadiain, I don't know what happened to your post. Your older posts here are very interesting to read. My Allora alto (0145xx) has the single rod pinky keys for the right hand. I also noticed the double rod versions have a different shaped key for the low C. It's larger and more elongated than the C key on the single rod horns. This seems to be true at least for the altos. I haven't checked any tenors yet.

 

[soybean]

Another B&S model just spotted on eBay;

Series 1000 -III-

This must have been made around the same time B&S upgraded the Series 2001 to Series 2001 -IV-.

In other words, it is a model 1000 horn with improved keywork.

 

[HUTMO]

Back in the day I had in my possession a 2001 and a CJS and they were identical with only a few changes in key work. The low eflat c key shared the same rod instead of two. They played and sounded identical to each other.

I compared pics of the Medusa with these horns very closely and concluded that the Medussa was essentially the same sax with no MAJOR difference. Maybe a change here or there to fine tune it but essentially the same sax. Plus... the Medusa offered the extra necks and the fancy engraving. If I remember correclty the key work on the Medusa was closer to the CJS.



The difference between a CJS and my 2001 series that I have noticed.

1. CJS - The F natural key has a helper on it.

2. CJS - The low E flat and low C key assembly has only one rod compared to one for each key on the 2001.

3. 2001 has a larger key touch for the low E flat and low C key





HUTMO

 

[The A Train]

Another B&S model just spotted on eBay;

Series 1000 -III-

This must have been made around the same time B&S upgraded the Series 2001 to Series 2001 -IV-.

In other words, it is a model 1000 horn with improved keywork.

Fellow that used to be in the concert band I'm in has one of these. I've played it. Great sounding horn and very free-blowing all the way down to low Bb, like butter. It's supposed to be intermediate class I believe.

 

[soybean]

I've played it. Great sounding horn and very free-blowing all the way down to low Bb, like butter. It's supposed to be intermediate class I believe.

Interesting. There was some talk of these being very close to the 2001 in quality with just a few features less than the (then) top of the line model 2001.

 

[soybean]

Another model mentioned is the B&S soprano SC620. Supposedly a curved soprano, but no photo seen. It's probably not a German-made B&S.

 

[soybean]

There is a Weltklang Solist tenor on eBay. It's a two-tone with serial 60XXX. Anyone know about the "Solist" and if it was different from other Weltklang saxes?

 

[The A Train]

Sweet deal here> http://cgi.ebay.com/B-S-Series-2001...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item45f0effd72

 

[58tenor]

I own an Allora gold laq model which I thought was a model 602-can't remember. I have also a CJS gold laq and used to own a CJS black nickel finish. (all tenors). Detailed perusal revealed only 2 minute differences between the CJ models and the Allora. The biggest difference is the CJS's have the single axis for the RH pinky keys and the Allora uses 2 seperate rods with 4 posts insted of 2. The table keys are very slightly different in shape. The horns play and feel the same.
Alloras were marketed at a lesser price than the CJS so it's odd that it has slightly more intricate keywork. The CJS has areally neat looking tinted coppery looking lacquer. The Allora has a standard clear finish. The Allora has seen daily use for about 4 years now and has held up perfectly. I stashed the CJS from new just for the heck of it. There used to be huge closeups of the Courtuois on Kessler's and they were visually identical to the Allora except the engraving was different.

 

[soybean]

Add another name to the list. A two tone Stratos tenor was just spotted. It has the vertical engraving "Made in GDR"… very similar to the later Made in Germany and in the same font. Serial 617xx. It appears to have a high F# key. The seller says it is from the house of Weltklang.