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STORY TIME: (Scroll down for "the verdict.")
I first heard about the Taiwanese brand "LC Sax" here on SOTW, and I figured I would check it out. As regular members might have noticed, I don't comment very much on the threads about where instruments are made, what they're made of, etc. I'm not a theorist, luthier or tech. I only care how they play. So far, none of the Asian brands I've tried, with the exception of Yamaha and Yanagisawa, have impressed me at all. I've heard them sound brilliant in the hands of other players, and don't get me wrong, I really think that horns and players are completely individual decisions. What works for one will almost certainly NOT work for another.
However, the limitations I feel when playing a Cannonball, Jean Baptiste, Jupiter, Mauriat, Bundy, Selmer USA, Prelude, Orpheo, Topsax, Cecilio, LA Sax, etc. (I don't remember EVERY horn I've tried), are similar to my experience when I go back to my YAS-23 from my Series III. It's a GOOD horn, but I feel like there's a lot of information missing from the signal, so to speak: the sound isn't as complex, though it plays in tune, speaks easily and generally behaves like a good horn. I've felt that way particularly about the Cannonball and Mauriat. I'm sure they're solid enough for many to enjoy, but they don't give me the depth of expression I want. This distinction is different from the ongoing issue I've had with my Martin tenor, which has plenty of depth to its expression, but it's not the expression I want.
This brings me to the reason for my interest in LC Sax in particular. I'm always open to trying new brands, and contrary to what many have posited lately as the prevailing taste for most players (see the thread on "Bling"), I've actually gone into many of these sessions expecting great things. I've been let down many times, yet I was intrigued when I saw that the LC Saxes were COMPLETELY HANDMADE! There's no purchasing keywork from Yamaha, as does the only other modern handmade horn-maker I know of... EVERY part is banged out and hand soldered, dremelled, etc, with the exception of the tone holes, which I learned were machine-pulled.
From my interactions with master craftsmen such as Aaron Drake and Ted Klum, both of whom have given me their time to show, tell and educate me on what it is they do, I've gained a tremendous respect for handmade instruments. However, simply making something by hand does not make one a master craftsman, so I contacted LC's North American rep, Juan Martinez, to see about getting my hands on some of these horns, and he informed me he'd be in town this week.
After a day of teaching school (and sneaking in some shed time in the "band room"), I headed to New York City for a rehearsal in Times Square, wondering where I'd be able to try these things... I was rehearsing at the venue, which had a show to put on when we were done, and Juan is staying at a hotel WAAY downtown where I'm not sure they'd appreciate an evening jam session! I'm SURE Sam Ash or Roberto's wouldn't want us trying out horns that they aren't selling, so I walked to meet Juan at Ray's Pizza with no idea what to expect as far as being able to actually try the horns.
After a quick meal with Juan, his lovely significant other and his (equally lovely) cousin, we wound up walking to a little enclave on 46th. He called it a park, but it was really just a bunch of benches, tables and potted trees between some tall buildings. There were lots of people around, listening to music, eating, reading, so I was a bit self-conscious about just whipping out the tenors and having at it, but you gotta do what you gotta do!
Now, Juan had told me that there would be ample visible evidence of the hand-craftsmanship on these instruments: spots where the dremel tool had been used to clean up solder, rough spots from being worked on. I expected to see something like the Inderbinens, which wear their hand-made status openly for even laymen to see. Imagine my surprise when he pulled out a beautifully engraved, gold-plated tenor with black-pearl keys and black Roo pads. I'm not sold on the hype about Roo pads being the greatest ever, but they certainly didn't stick, and it was one of the small touches that shows that the instrument was set up with some amount of care.
As usual with gorgeous Asian horns, I WANTED to love this horn, and as usual with gorgeous Asian horns, I thought it seemed (very) well made and had excellent ergonomics. However, when I played it, it didn't light me up. Juan told me that this was a "jazz" horn, with a fatter, more spread sound, and it was made using feedback Mr. Cheng has gotten from LC Sax's (only?) endorser: Anibal Rojas, who is a BEAST. It certainly outplayed my Martin on many levels (though when I A/B'ed it I was more comfortable on the Martin), but it gave me exactly the same problem I had on the Martin: great sound... but not my sound.
I used to think the issue was a lack of focus in the tone of the Martin, which to a certain extent, it was. However, when I upgraded to a Ted Klum ResoTone (and for me, going from ANY mouthpiece to a Klum is an upgrade), I got all the focus I could want in my tone, and I realized there was a certain fatness, some aspect of old-school R&B or Dexter Gordon in the tone that I didn't want in my sound. This LC Sax shared that "defect," and the attendant finicky lower overtones, though for a great many players, I'm sure this is EXACTLY the sound they've been searching for. The LC clearly outclassed the Martin mechanically, with a much faster action and a lower stack that was not designed for monkey hands, in contrast to most vintage horns. Sadly, though, I had not found the horn I wanted.
I wouldn't be writing this friggin epic post if the story ended there, though. Juan had brought a SECOND tenor for me to try. This was the "pop" horn, which designation inclined me NOT to like it as much, as I find instruments designed for pop music to generally lack the depth of expression I'm after. To Juan, though, it was simple: "Jazz horns have more spread... a fatter sound. The pop horn is more focused. I think you're gonna like this one."
While the plainer lacquered finish (which also had very nice engraving) didn't get me going as much as the gold plate on the other horn, I honestly appreciated the regular white key touches and teardrop front F, as the other horn's front F pearl was not as familiar to my fingers. The lacquer color also matched my Selmer alto pretty much exactly, I think.
The sound... was right up my alley, man. Beautiful centered tone, ridiculously fast action, wonderful ergonomics. I just wanted to play that thing. Coming from the Series III alto, everything FELT right, with the one exception of the palm-key D, which I felt was too low on the horn for my hand. Juan pointed out that moving the left-hand thumb rest and octave key down an inch or two fixed that problem, and I found he was right when I placed my thumb down where he suggested. With hand-made horns, I guess all things are possible!
I found the altissimo to speak easily, the overtones easy to control, a great, centered tone at any dynamic in any range, and excellent intonation all over the horn.
THE VERDICT:
My Martin is for sale, but that's for another thread. I'm gonna get me that horn! LC Sax is the real deal. The model I liked (T-601) turned out to be lower-priced than the other horn, felt like a Series III ALTO to my hands, and kind of sounded like a VI, maybe? It's hard to say without one to compare at hand. It definitely had the focus and warmth to the tone that I associate with a Mark VI tenor, or even with some Series III tenors, but that I haven't found in other Selmers I've tried. I don't think there's any doubt that this horn is going after a Selmer sound, whatever specific one it is. That's fine with me!
Oh yeah, the LC is priced less than many a Mauriat. ***, seriously?!
Final plug: I want to say that these horns had an expert setup, and Juan seems to be an extremely competent tech. No leaks and the neck was fit perfectly which he did himself.
Happily ever after: we finished the night going to see my buddy's (Aki Ishiguro) group play at the 55 Bar with Will Vinson on alto... man, what a monster!!! Great end to a great day!
I first heard about the Taiwanese brand "LC Sax" here on SOTW, and I figured I would check it out. As regular members might have noticed, I don't comment very much on the threads about where instruments are made, what they're made of, etc. I'm not a theorist, luthier or tech. I only care how they play. So far, none of the Asian brands I've tried, with the exception of Yamaha and Yanagisawa, have impressed me at all. I've heard them sound brilliant in the hands of other players, and don't get me wrong, I really think that horns and players are completely individual decisions. What works for one will almost certainly NOT work for another.
However, the limitations I feel when playing a Cannonball, Jean Baptiste, Jupiter, Mauriat, Bundy, Selmer USA, Prelude, Orpheo, Topsax, Cecilio, LA Sax, etc. (I don't remember EVERY horn I've tried), are similar to my experience when I go back to my YAS-23 from my Series III. It's a GOOD horn, but I feel like there's a lot of information missing from the signal, so to speak: the sound isn't as complex, though it plays in tune, speaks easily and generally behaves like a good horn. I've felt that way particularly about the Cannonball and Mauriat. I'm sure they're solid enough for many to enjoy, but they don't give me the depth of expression I want. This distinction is different from the ongoing issue I've had with my Martin tenor, which has plenty of depth to its expression, but it's not the expression I want.
This brings me to the reason for my interest in LC Sax in particular. I'm always open to trying new brands, and contrary to what many have posited lately as the prevailing taste for most players (see the thread on "Bling"), I've actually gone into many of these sessions expecting great things. I've been let down many times, yet I was intrigued when I saw that the LC Saxes were COMPLETELY HANDMADE! There's no purchasing keywork from Yamaha, as does the only other modern handmade horn-maker I know of... EVERY part is banged out and hand soldered, dremelled, etc, with the exception of the tone holes, which I learned were machine-pulled.
From my interactions with master craftsmen such as Aaron Drake and Ted Klum, both of whom have given me their time to show, tell and educate me on what it is they do, I've gained a tremendous respect for handmade instruments. However, simply making something by hand does not make one a master craftsman, so I contacted LC's North American rep, Juan Martinez, to see about getting my hands on some of these horns, and he informed me he'd be in town this week.
After a day of teaching school (and sneaking in some shed time in the "band room"), I headed to New York City for a rehearsal in Times Square, wondering where I'd be able to try these things... I was rehearsing at the venue, which had a show to put on when we were done, and Juan is staying at a hotel WAAY downtown where I'm not sure they'd appreciate an evening jam session! I'm SURE Sam Ash or Roberto's wouldn't want us trying out horns that they aren't selling, so I walked to meet Juan at Ray's Pizza with no idea what to expect as far as being able to actually try the horns.
After a quick meal with Juan, his lovely significant other and his (equally lovely) cousin, we wound up walking to a little enclave on 46th. He called it a park, but it was really just a bunch of benches, tables and potted trees between some tall buildings. There were lots of people around, listening to music, eating, reading, so I was a bit self-conscious about just whipping out the tenors and having at it, but you gotta do what you gotta do!
Now, Juan had told me that there would be ample visible evidence of the hand-craftsmanship on these instruments: spots where the dremel tool had been used to clean up solder, rough spots from being worked on. I expected to see something like the Inderbinens, which wear their hand-made status openly for even laymen to see. Imagine my surprise when he pulled out a beautifully engraved, gold-plated tenor with black-pearl keys and black Roo pads. I'm not sold on the hype about Roo pads being the greatest ever, but they certainly didn't stick, and it was one of the small touches that shows that the instrument was set up with some amount of care.
As usual with gorgeous Asian horns, I WANTED to love this horn, and as usual with gorgeous Asian horns, I thought it seemed (very) well made and had excellent ergonomics. However, when I played it, it didn't light me up. Juan told me that this was a "jazz" horn, with a fatter, more spread sound, and it was made using feedback Mr. Cheng has gotten from LC Sax's (only?) endorser: Anibal Rojas, who is a BEAST. It certainly outplayed my Martin on many levels (though when I A/B'ed it I was more comfortable on the Martin), but it gave me exactly the same problem I had on the Martin: great sound... but not my sound.
I used to think the issue was a lack of focus in the tone of the Martin, which to a certain extent, it was. However, when I upgraded to a Ted Klum ResoTone (and for me, going from ANY mouthpiece to a Klum is an upgrade), I got all the focus I could want in my tone, and I realized there was a certain fatness, some aspect of old-school R&B or Dexter Gordon in the tone that I didn't want in my sound. This LC Sax shared that "defect," and the attendant finicky lower overtones, though for a great many players, I'm sure this is EXACTLY the sound they've been searching for. The LC clearly outclassed the Martin mechanically, with a much faster action and a lower stack that was not designed for monkey hands, in contrast to most vintage horns. Sadly, though, I had not found the horn I wanted.
I wouldn't be writing this friggin epic post if the story ended there, though. Juan had brought a SECOND tenor for me to try. This was the "pop" horn, which designation inclined me NOT to like it as much, as I find instruments designed for pop music to generally lack the depth of expression I'm after. To Juan, though, it was simple: "Jazz horns have more spread... a fatter sound. The pop horn is more focused. I think you're gonna like this one."
While the plainer lacquered finish (which also had very nice engraving) didn't get me going as much as the gold plate on the other horn, I honestly appreciated the regular white key touches and teardrop front F, as the other horn's front F pearl was not as familiar to my fingers. The lacquer color also matched my Selmer alto pretty much exactly, I think.
The sound... was right up my alley, man. Beautiful centered tone, ridiculously fast action, wonderful ergonomics. I just wanted to play that thing. Coming from the Series III alto, everything FELT right, with the one exception of the palm-key D, which I felt was too low on the horn for my hand. Juan pointed out that moving the left-hand thumb rest and octave key down an inch or two fixed that problem, and I found he was right when I placed my thumb down where he suggested. With hand-made horns, I guess all things are possible!
I found the altissimo to speak easily, the overtones easy to control, a great, centered tone at any dynamic in any range, and excellent intonation all over the horn.
THE VERDICT:
My Martin is for sale, but that's for another thread. I'm gonna get me that horn! LC Sax is the real deal. The model I liked (T-601) turned out to be lower-priced than the other horn, felt like a Series III ALTO to my hands, and kind of sounded like a VI, maybe? It's hard to say without one to compare at hand. It definitely had the focus and warmth to the tone that I associate with a Mark VI tenor, or even with some Series III tenors, but that I haven't found in other Selmers I've tried. I don't think there's any doubt that this horn is going after a Selmer sound, whatever specific one it is. That's fine with me!
Oh yeah, the LC is priced less than many a Mauriat. ***, seriously?!
Final plug: I want to say that these horns had an expert setup, and Juan seems to be an extremely competent tech. No leaks and the neck was fit perfectly which he did himself.
Happily ever after: we finished the night going to see my buddy's (Aki Ishiguro) group play at the 55 Bar with Will Vinson on alto... man, what a monster!!! Great end to a great day!
