[Convert52]

OK, I've got a new Levante bass sax that I'm trying out from amazon. It didn't play at all out of box so I had a local tech check it over. He's never worked on a bass before, but found and fixed several significant leaks. The horn will speak down to low b_flat but has a number of marginal notes and worst of all, plays the mid-staff C about 70 cents flat(!) with my mouthpiece pushed as for up as it will go (Clark Fobes Nova Baritone Saxophone Mouthpiece--has a large chamber and is really to big for my 11m bari). It's similar with the crap bari-ish mouthpiece that came with the horn. C above the staff is similar and low C is a little better--at least the tuner shows -30 cents from concert B_flat rather than +30 above A.

Both mouthpieces go about 2/3 up the cork and then seem to ground-out due to contact between the bore shank and the protective ring on the mouthpiece end of the neck. That ring stands pretty proud--I'd never really noticed them before, never having had this sort of tuning issue before. To go further, I'd either have to enlarge the bore shank or reduce/remove the ring. I'm not keen on either without knowing if anyone else has faced this problem and solved it. There's probably another ~1/2" of cork if the ring-interference was eliminated.

Any ideas what could be going on and thoughts on the next steps? Thanks for your help.

 

[reeddoubler]

Most, if not all (at least of the several basses I’ve played) have flat LH middle finger C’s, much better to use the B with side C fingering. Also, before you give up on this horn, try an actual bass mouthpiece, you may be surprised at the results!

 

[Convert52]

Thanks. Its the whole horn that's flat, not just the middle c
Picked it up from the tech today and after playing for a bit, it was about 30 cents at low D and below and tended toward 50 cents above that. The low C thru B-flat are fat and resonant, so I'm not sure I'd gain much with a bass mouthpiece--but, if I keep the horn, I'm sure I'll eventually try that!

I'm pretty sure the next step is increasing the shank bore of the mouthpiece....

 

[donnc]

I had a similar problem with my H Couf, years ago, and I enlarged some mouthpieces. I can't recommend that. Remove the ring, it's an easy fix and then the cork can be adjusted to fit your mouthpiece. Bass sax mouthpiece dimensions vary considerably - from the same size as a bari shank, which is common, to significantly larger, which may be more common now than it was 20 years ago. But the mouthpieces I enlarged all seem to have tuning issues.

 

[Convert52]

Yeah, enlarging the bore would also make the mouthpiece less or un-usable on my bari. But, I'm not sure where tuning issues would come from, since the enlarged area would be filled with cork for practical purposes

Rather than removing the ring, I'll probably try gently filing it to a smaller diameter. Like I mention above, its radius is about 1 mm more than the neck itself so even after removing some material, it should still help protect the neck.

 

[donnc]

If it's like mine, and if you can bring it to a repair technician, I believe the procedure will be
1. remove the cork
2. heat above 200°C with torch
3. pop ring off
4. recork shank to fit the mouthpiece.

None of this is rocket science, and it shouldn't cost much. The ring is really pointless. I don't know who started this with the rings, but I can't remember seeing another saxophone with one, other than that H Couf.

 

[zapatista]

OK, I've got a new Levante bass sax that I'm trying out from amazon. It didn't play at all out of box so I had a local tech check it over. He's never worked on a bass before, but found and fixed several significant leaks. The horn will speak down to low b_flat but has a number of marginal notes and worst of all, plays the mid-staff C about 70 cents flat(!) with my mouthpiece pushed as for up as it will go (Clark Fobes Nova Baritone Saxophone Mouthpiece--has a large chamber and is really to big for my 11m bari). It's similar with the crap bari-ish mouthpiece that came with the horn. C above the staff is similar and low C is a little better--at least the tuner shows -30 cents from concert B_flat rather than +30 above A.

Both mouthpieces go about 2/3 up the cork and then seem to ground-out due to contact between the bore shank and the protective ring on the mouthpiece end of the neck. That ring stands pretty proud--I'd never really noticed them before, never having had this sort of tuning issue before. To go further, I'd either have to enlarge the bore shank or reduce/remove the ring. I'm not keen on either without knowing if anyone else has faced this problem and solved it. There's probably another ~1/2" of cork if the ring-interference was eliminated.

Any ideas what could be going on and thoughts on the next steps? Thanks for your help.

So did you buy a truly "new" one or the one that was listed as used "acceptable" for under $2k?

 

[Convert52]

So did you buy a truly "new" one or the one that was listed as used "acceptable" for under $2k?

Well, there's a story there! Yes, I bought the used-acceptable one. But, I also bought it when it was new (for $2,600) and returned it. Rather than take it to a tech on the first round, Amazon said they'd exchange it for another (the F# key leaked like a sieve). Once they had it back and looked at what I'd paid, they decided not to send another. I re-bought it used, when the price hit 1600. Its was definitely the same horn with the same issue that I' returned.

Guess you were thinking about it too?

 

[zapatista]

I was watching it fall from about $2,500 to $1,940 (ish) over a month or so but did not look at it regularly.

 

[Convert52]

Just an update--and hoping for more suggestions. Levante was kind enough to send a 2nd neck for the sax and this allowed me to try some "aggressive" approaches. I ground the ring flush and that allowed the mouthpiece to slide up about a quarter inch more--a little better but far from enough. Just wanting to get the thing to pitch (dam it), I sawed off about 1/2" of neck and removed the all cork to allow the mouthpiece to go up further. There's a good seal on against t he neck just as the front end of it hits the front of the mouthpiece chamber. So this, is about as far as things can go without modifying the mouthpiece. The low b_flat through g are in tune! But, a- middle c# are still ~15-30 cents flat with a normal embouchure and 15-10 cents flat if I strain.

What should I try next?

 

[Dr G]

What should I try next?

A bass sax mouthpiece.

Would you similarly hack a tenor sax to make an alto piece "work"?

Seek out some of the people here that play bass sax to learn from their experience. Do you know what brand/model that yours is a copy of ("inspired by")? That might help.

 

[reeddoubler]

I second Dr G (indeed I suggested the same above) get a bass sax mouthpiece!!! Before you started cutting up necks, etc!

 

[Convert52]

>A bass sax mouthpiece

Explain to me how this won't only make it play lower. If anything it would have a larger chamber which means lower pitch, no?

It's one of the Selmer copies from Jinbao. (For what its' worth, looking at the Selmer in this vid, the player is at the upper end of the mp position:

)

 

[Dr G]

My concern is that it might correct the overall pitch, but exacerbate bad intonation between notes.

 

[Convert52]

The piece I'm using ( https://www.clarkwfobes.com/products/nova-baritone-saxophone-mouthpiece?variant=6111763013 ) is quite large for a bari mp--too large for a Conn 11m (B_flat). I don't think its the primary source of my problems.

 

[Dr G]

The piece I'm using ( https://www.clarkwfobes.com/products/nova-baritone-saxophone-mouthpiece?variant=6111763013 ) is quite large for a bari mp--too large for a Conn 11m (B_flat). I don't think its the primary source of my problems.

I didn't say that it is your primary source of problems. I ponder whether fixing your "primary" problem of average pitch will leave you with your next major challenge - intonation.

 

[donnc]

I'm for bass sax mouthpieces, but the neck modification I have seen proposed in this thread isn't going to affect pitch or any aspect playing, it just allows the neck to accept mouthpieces in a normal range of shank size. For example, I'd bet that without that modification, that neck wouldn't easily take my Selmer C* bass mouthpiece. With the goofy ring gone, those mouthpieces still won't fit, but from there it's possible to re-cork the neck for a smaller shank size.

Shank bores on my bass sax mouthpieces vary pretty widely - I get values from 0.712" to 0.774". That 0.774 is the one that came with the sax (with goofy shank ring.) At just a wild guess, that represents both an outlier and an overall trend - the Chinese bass shanks are going to be aimed at a larger spec than my old Selmer, but not that big.

 

[Convert52]

>but the neck modification I have seen proposed in this thread isn't going to affect pitch or any aspect playing,

Why not? If it reduces overall the overall volume of the sax/mouthpiece system and reduces the length from tip opening to the tone holes, its going to raise the pitch. It's no different than how we tune an instrument in the first place. I agree with Dr. G, that there's the risk of trading one problem for another. But yes, it raises the pitch.

(And don't worry, I've got a 2nd neck so there is a path back)

Maybe I've missed understood which neck mod you're referring to. The first thing I tried was effectively removing the ring at the end of the neck.

 

[donnc]

OK, if you allow some assumptions that I regard as unreasonable - if you suppose that 1) my Selmer C* wouldn't go on very far, and 2) he would therefore play the C* with the mouthpiece dangling unusually far out at the end of the shank, then of course, the distance from tip end to tone holes would be longer.

I was assuming that in practice, he would use only mouthpieces that fit normally on the shank.

 

[Convert52]

FYI, there's another bass sax limboing lower: https://www.amazon.com/Levante-LV-S...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=TJR3PN9Z5CCMF1WYBF9D