[shootingstar]

I just finished a complete repad of a nice old King Zephyr, the fore-runner of the Super 20's. Boy does it honk. They just don't make them that good anymore. It made me realize that Conn-Selmer is in a very unique position. They own all the rights, plans, drawings, specs, jigs, and fixtures for making the old Conn M series of saxophone and the old King Super 20 series of saxophones. These are some the most loved and most sought after saxes of all time. If enough of us contacted them, do you think they would consider re-issuing these horns and stop having their saxes made so poorly overseas??? It was just a thought!

 

[JL]

If enough of us contacted them, do you think they would consider re-issuing these horns and stop having their saxes made so poorly overseas???

The quick answer is no, I don't think they would consider it.

However, there's no need for this. If you want a 10M or Super20, they are available. Why not just get one on the used horn market? Plenty of them are out there.

 

[StanleySaxMan]

The way to think of it is, would you rather own a remake or the real thing?

 

[SAXISMYAXE]

That will happen about the same time that Selmer Paris decides to re-release faithful reproductions of the MKVI (i.e. likely never).

 

[JL]

That will happen about the same time that Selmer Paris decides to re-release faithful reproductions of the MKVI (i.e. likely never).

Yes, and I think there have been a couple multi-page threads here on this very subject.

 

[ericdano]

God no. Selmer has way,...way too many different lines of saxophones as it is. They really don't need yet another over priced line of saxophones....

 

[Sigmund451]

...yea, just buy a used one. They would just screw it up anyway.

If you want a decent copy contact a maker in Asia. Sadly, you have a better chance of getting something close and playable there.

Conn gave up making quality saxophones generations ago.

 

[bruce bailey]

I doubt they have any machines or dies for older horns. Recently they discarded some body set-ups for 1990 model flutes. Many machines were sold or reworked to make other items. A coining press can be altered to make car parts, building materials, etc.

 

[milandro]

I am sure, as Bruce says, that no shapes have survived and that the only way to reproduce the old saxophones would be to go into VERY EXPENSIVE and small scale traditional making which is no longer the case with the large makers.

compare the way Rampone & Cazzani are made to the videos from other makers, see this video, unfortunately only in Italian, but the images are very revealing

 

[dexdex]

Let's never forget that laws have changed a lot during the last half century. This has a huge impact on labor costs (e.g. safety) and industrial processes (e.g. environmental issues). Selmer Paris is really struggling trying to maintain their production alive, in line with their historical tradition, in a very expensive and demanding area like Paris. We all know the list prices of their Ref horns, which are the Mk6s of today. This is what it costs to make such horns today. Rampone horns are in the same league. Overhead is probably a bit lower in the italian Alps, but there is certainly even more labor hours in their horns.
Who is ready to pay those real prices, while you can get "no-name" horns made nowhere and stamped "Paris" for 1/3 of the price ?

 

[dexdex]

Rampone's background music ? Michael Brecker on ... you know his horn ! Incredibile, che cosa ?!

 

[milandro]

that was program produced by a local television station, not a video made by them. They are very proud of their artists!

but this is a Rampone played by Emanuele Cisi

 

[milandro]

Let's never forget that laws have changed a lot during the last half century. This has a huge impact on labor costs (e.g. safety) and industrial processes (e.g. environmental issues). Selmer Paris is really struggling trying to maintain their production alive, in line with their historical tradition, in a very expensive and demanding area like Paris. We all know the list prices of their Ref horns, which are the Mk6s of today. This is what it costs to make such horns today. Rampone horns are in the same league. Overhead is probably a bit lower in the italian Alps, but there is certainly even more labor hours in their horns.
Who is ready to pay those real prices, while you can get "no-name" horns made nowhere and stamped "Paris" for 1/3 of the price ?

Rampone & Cazzani was one of the largest companies in Europe in the '60 and '70 but they went almost bust in the '80 , they had many more workers at that time and produced large quantities of relatively cheap saxophones with, at that time , industrial methods. The current owner of Rampone & Cazzani was actually helped into rescuing the company from certain demise by the Alessi company based in the neighbouring Omegna (they financed the Alessofono project).

They found that the only way to rescue the company was to scale down and go into production of high quality instruments.

Selmer, Keilwerth, will have to go the same way , sooner or later, to keep existing. The Keilwerth group ( brass and woodwinds) was just about rescued by the Buffet group which got rid of the brass part ( fired 150 people and kept 160) . Selmer , apparently ( this has been told me by someone who is very well placed in the business) currently is working 5 days in the week and has reduced the wages of the staff accordingly they have almost 600 workers.......

Rampone is a family owned small factory, father, mother and two sons all work in the company with a few faithful workers in this pretty village. A different kettle of fish!

 

[RootyTootoot]

Not likely!

I'm not having my 10M devalued by an abundance of beautifully handmade copies of the original designs.

i'm joking

The correct answer is to be found succinctly at #2 and #8.

 

[milandro]

........Who is ready to pay those real prices, while you can get "no-name" horns made nowhere and stamped "Paris" for 1/3 of the price ?

Actually the price of a Rampone is not far off the more expensive of the Taiwanese production and the Selmer saxophones. You can get a completely handmade saxophone at a comparable price than one made in a large industrial facility.

Rampone, like all things italian are not necessarily perfect but they are themselves have style and identity , unlike many other products similarly priced. You don't need an Inderbinen to get a great hand made sax.

 

[ConnSelmerStrike]

They just don't make them that good anymore.... If enough of us contacted them, do you think they would consider re-issuing these horns and stop having their saxes made so poorly overseas??? It was just a thought!

No, never because Conn Selmer let go many of the skilled workers during the great strikes of 2006 (Vincent Bach) 2011 (King plant) I was a saxophone Color Buffer at Bach for 25 years, I started at King in Cleveland and end coming home only to walk the strike line in 2011 realizing their going to lose many of their jobs even though they gave millions in concessions just like the Bach workers.

I was there trying to convince my supervisor not to throw in the hopper (during lean manufacturing) so much of the old fixers that we might want to go back to them someday.

I was there when management botched the transition from Bundy to AS 300 and yes they threw alway the old fixers after the transition. No going back there.

Are unions to blame? Vincent Bach brought in big money especially on mouthpieces and professional line, even the King workers said the company said it was not making a profit it was all about making more of a profit.

Consumers could have done more to the support the workers, their talent and with their coming age with a simple job to retire with. Consumers did not speak up and the tired old workers could not complete with misrepresentation of UAW and fancy company lawyers like Larry Hall.

Major Musical Manufacturing is forever lost in America, Conn Selmer killed it.

 

[bruce bailey]

A possible solution would be to make a 6M type of horn. Bodies made in Asia, shipped to Elkhart, finished ready for posts, Keywork from China fitted in Elkhart and all finishwork and engraving in the US. The body tooling is the expensive part. I would think going VERY high grade could make a possible seller. List an alto for about $7,500. Somehow Conn and others made it through the depression of the 30s and still made some of the best horns ever.

 

[milandro]

if you want to buy bodies I'll hook you up with some Taiwanese makers............me I stick to dreaming to win the lottery.......

 

[jazzbluescat]

That will happen about the same time that Selmer Paris decides to re-release faithful reproductions of the MKVI (i.e. likely never).

Isn't the Reference the MKVI replica?

 

[StanleySaxMan]

Isn't the Reference the MKVI replica?

That is what I thought, Reference 54 = Mark VI sound with modern key work. Same with the Reference 36 being the BA or SBA (I think).