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Discussion Starter #1
Hope everyone is doing well this fine day!

I've been up to my head in the 100000 ways to improve my sax playing lately, and I've felt overburdened by a lot of the things I've been trying to do on top of my lessons and recordings.

So, I wanted to ground myself a bit and I realized I've never done something most all of you probably have - Learn a tune in and out. Like I've memorized nothing musically, and only ever read my sheets of the standards. Sure, I spent some rather extensive time learning the blues changes last year - which was probably the biggest step forward in my development ever, but I still have to read a head if I want to play it. So I want to recreate upon this development, but I want to expand as well.

My goal: Learn 10 jazz standards this year - memorizing the head and changes, transcribing multiple solos for each, and finally, developing my own melodic concept/solo.

I was hoping SOTW would aid me in this journey, by helping me build a list of the songs it would be most beneficial to work. Here is my current plan, but I'm open to any suggestions:
Autumn Leaves
All The Things You Are
Lester Leaps In (Learn Rhythm Changes!)
Take the 'A' Train
Impressions (Learn Modal Jazz Concepts)
Cherokee (Bebop Concepts)
Misty
Giant Steps
Blue Bossa
Take Five (or another non 4/4 tune)
 

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jazz, rock, funk, fusion and gospel on tenor, alto and soprano
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Hope everyone is doing well this fine day!

I've been up to my head in the 100000 ways to improve my sax playing lately, and I've felt overburdened by a lot of the things I've been trying to do on top of my lessons and recordings.

So, I wanted to ground myself a bit and I realized I've never done something most all of you probably have - Learn a tune in and out. Like I've memorized nothing musically, and only ever read my sheets of the standards. Sure, I spent some rather extensive time learning the blues changes last year - which was probably the biggest step forward in my development ever, but I still have to read a head if I want to play it. So I want to recreate upon this development, but I want to expand as well.

My goal: Learn 10 jazz standards this year - memorizing the head and changes, transcribing multiple solos for each, and finally, developing my own melodic concept/solo.

I was hoping SOTW would aid me in this journey, by helping me build a list of the songs it would be most beneficial to work. Here is my current plan, but I'm open to any suggestions:
Autumn Leaves
All The Things You Are
Lester Leaps In (Learn Rhythm Changes!)
Take the 'A' Train
Impressions (Learn Modal Jazz Concepts)
Cherokee (Bebop Concepts)
Misty
Giant Steps
Blue Bossa
Take Five (or another non 4/4 tune)
I am working on a similar practice routine this year, although at perhaps a somewhat more advanced level, since I have already memorized the changes and heads to dozens of standards many years ago. But I don't know every chord tone in all of those changes inside and out like the back of my hand. I think my new practice routine I started last November would probably be beneficial to you as well. I have been following the practicing strategies that Chad Lefkowitz Brown has been posting on his YouTube page and I also downloaded a few of his practicing materials from his website, jazzlessonvideos.com. I feel like I am finally beginning to master all of those changes inside and out, and practicing has become fun and exciting again. After practicing the standards in a couple of Chad's ebooks, I am finding amazing things popping out in my solos that are far more technically and harmonically advanced than anything I ever played before I started this practice routine. My favorite is Chad's 4 Tune Learning Exercises on 20 standard chord progressions. This ebook gives you 4 different ways of practicing through the changes of 20 jazz standards and after I practice all 4 of the ways of practicing a standard, I then go and solo on that standard and all kinds of wonderful things are coming out in my solos that I never dreamed of before I started using this ebook. I have also been using Chad's ebook 67 Pentatonic Phrases, and this has also been a game changer for me. Chad gives an introduction to these materials on his YouTube channel;


 

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I'd think about types of tunes (which you have done to some extent):

ii-V-I tunes
12 bar blues
minor blues
Rhythm changes
Circle of fifths tunes (rhythm changes covers a bit of this in the bridge, but I'm thinking of tunes like All of Me, Bill Bailey, Dinah, etc.)

I'd also go back well before bebop in learning tunes, to get that grounding. Like most people who started playing after 1970, I had this idea that jazz really started with Bird and Diz and all that older stuff was just weird corny stuff - but actually it's the basis for bebop and everything that follows. So for example, on some of the tunes you listed above:

Lester Leaps - go back to Lester's solos and the Basie performances. There are hundreds of recordings out there on rhythm changes that predate bebop.

A Train - again, go to Duke's recordings. Pay especial attention to the background patterns and riffs of the band.

Cherokee - go to Charlie Barnet before you go to Bird.

Frankly I am not overwhelmed by Take Five, but your interests may vary from mine. There aren't a lot of tunes in other than four or three, but if you feel improvising in something other than four is important to you at this point, I'd go for some of the many jazz waltzes out there rather than Take Five. They have interesting changes too.

For "circle of fifths" tunes, I'd do some good hard listening to Bix Beiderbecke's recordings and Fats Waller's recordings, then pick a couple from there.
 

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I'd think about types of tunes (which you have done to some extent):

ii-V-I tunes
12 bar blues
minor blues
Rhythm changes
Circle of fifths tunes (rhythm changes covers a bit of this in the bridge, but I'm thinking of tunes like All of Me, Bill Bailey, Dinah, etc.)

I'd also go back well before bebop in learning tunes, to get that grounding. Like most people who started playing after 1970, I had this idea that jazz really started with Bird and Diz and all that older stuff was just weird corny stuff - but actually it's the basis for bebop and everything that follows. So for example, on some of the tunes you listed above:

Lester Leaps - go back to Lester's solos and the Basie performances. There are hundreds of recordings out there on rhythm changes that predate bebop.

A Train - again, go to Duke's recordings. Pay especial attention to the background patterns and riffs of the band.

Cherokee - go to Charlie Barnet before you go to Bird.

Frankly I am not overwhelmed by Take Five, but your interests may vary from mine. There aren't a lot of tunes in other than four or three, but if you feel improvising in something other than four is important to you at this point, I'd go for some of the many jazz waltzes out there rather than Take Five. They have interesting changes too.

For "circle of fifths" tunes, I'd do some good hard listening to Bix Beiderbecke's recordings and Fats Waller's recordings, then pick a couple from there.
I agree with your suggestions regarding the various types of chord progressions. That's the other reason I like Chad LB's book 4 exercises through 20 standard chord progressions. Chad pretty much hits up all of the basic chord progression types in his ebook.
 
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I am working on a similar practice routine this year, although at perhaps a somewhat more advanced level, since I have already memorized the changes and heads to dozens of standards many years ago. But I don't know every chord tone in all of those changes inside and out like the back of my hand. I think my new practice routine I started last November would probably be beneficial to you as well. I have been following the practicing strategies that Chad Lefkowitz Brown has been posting on his YouTube page and I also downloaded a few of his practicing materials from his website, jazzlessonvideos.com. I feel like I am finally beginning to master all of those changes inside and out, and practicing has become fun and exciting again. After practicing the standards in a couple of Chad's ebooks, I am finding amazing things popping out in my solos that are far more technically and harmonically advanced than anything I ever played before I started this practice routine. My favorite is Chad's 4 Tune Learning Exercises on 20 standard chord progressions. This ebook gives you 4 different ways of practicing through the changes of 20 jazz standards and after I practice all 4 of the ways of practicing a standard, I then go and solo on that standard and all kinds of wonderful things are coming out in my solos that I never dreamed of before I started using this ebook. I have also been using Chad's ebook 67 Pentatonic Phrases, and this has also been a game changer for me. Chad gives an introduction to these materials on his YouTube channel;


Normally I wouldn't up and buy a new book to practice from so quickly, but this guy sold me pretty quickly. I watched that first video you linked, and decided I could definitely benefit from practicing the content he described. Now to somehow find time to work on this in addition to everything else I have laid out in front of me...
 

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There are tons of tunes that fit the bill for learning the common harmonic patterns that come up in jazz repertoire so pick songs you like and are drawn to, especially starting out. Finding others to play with on a regular basis also helps, particularly if you’re all working up the same material.
 

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@J-Moen

Learning these really hard tunes (Giant Steps, Cherokee, All the Things You Are) is an admirable goal. But I'd focus on the simpler tunes and the fundamentals first. Please take this as constructive criticism, not anything personal. I check out some of your recordings from time to time, and you're coming along great. You've got a nice sound and good improv ideas. But you still have some fundamental issues, namely, time and swing.

Your time is still very loose where you rush, drag and generally lack precision. If you were my student, I'd have you play whatever exercises you're working on with a metronome at all times. It's going to take practice and discipline over a long period to develop a good sense of time. In the months you've been playing, I haven't really heard much improvement in your time. So I think you're in a rut and have neglected or skipped this part of your development. But it is a fundamental and critical skill that has to be mastered. I drill this into my my kids and my students. They hate me for it at the time but thank me later. Unfortunately, it's really hard to enforce good time by yourself without a ton of self discipline. A teacher is really needed. So I suggest you get one as soon as it's safe to do so.

Along the same lines as time, your swing feel is still kind of hokey (dotted eighth, sixteenth-ish). In addition to listening and playing along with simple solos by the greats, a good exercise is to set the metronome to click only on 2 and 4 and then tongue only the upbeats in eighth note runs. This makes you really feel where the swing part of the beat goes. In practice of course, you wouldn't tongue only upbeats all the time. But this exercise helps you develop a solid swing feel. Then work in different accents and articulations to make your lines really swing and flow.

When the covid is over, I highly recommend you try to join a group like a big band. There's nothing like playing in a sax section to develop your time, style, swing, articulation, dynamics and overall musicianship. It's really hard to learn all of that in a vacuum. Best you can do now is listen, play along and stick to that metronome.
 

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Best thing you can do is start playing these tunes you are memorizing in front of other people. There is something about performing them live in front of others that solidifies the whole process for me. I could work on memorizing a tune for weeks in the practice room and never get there but if I have to perform it in front of an audience I have to get my act together!
 

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I think your list is fine, though (as others have said) some of the tunes may be a bit challenging. My starting point suggestion would be: don't read any of the heads, at all!

Not even once! Instead, pick them off of your favorite recordings by ear. The heads are really easy to sing and get in your head, and this will be good practice for training your ear. Also, you'll find that the way artists play these tunes on your favorite recordings rarely matches the lead sheet exactly.
 

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Two things:

Master easy songs. Save the hard stuff for later.

Time is super important. Without solid time, little else matters.

Playing live / having deadlines / recording really works.

Turns out it was three things. Enjoy.
 

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So, I wanted to ground myself a bit and I realized I've never done something most all of you probably have - Learn a tune in and out. Like I've memorized nothing musically, and only ever read my sheets of the standards. Sure, I spent some rather extensive time learning the blues changes last year - which was probably the biggest step forward in my development ever, but I still have to read a head if I want to play it. So I want to recreate upon this development, but I want to expand as well.
There are some good concepts to consider here: How to learn a standard in 7 steps. Vlog#46

+1 to Lydian's comments regarding "focus on the fundamentals" - intonation, attack, phrasing, timing... As you learn your favorite tunes, listen to your recordings and those of the greats. Do you hear a difference? What are they? Which of those differences can you turn into achievable goals?

Enjoy the path.
 
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@J-Moen

Your time is still very loose where you rush, drag and generally lack precision. If you were my student, I'd have you play whatever exercises you're working on with a metronome at all times. It's going to take practice and discipline over a long period to develop a good sense of time. In the months you've been playing, I haven't really heard much improvement in your time. So I think you're in a rut and have neglected or skipped this part of your development. But it is a fundamental and critical skill that has to be mastered. I drill this into my my kids and my students. They hate me for it at the time but thank me later. Unfortunately, it's really hard to enforce good time by yourself without a ton of self discipline. A teacher is really needed. So I suggest you get one as soon as it's safe to do so.

Along the same lines as time, your swing feel is still kind of hokey (dotted eighth, sixteenth-ish). In addition to listening and playing along with simple solos by the greats, a good exercise is to set the metronome to click only on 2 and 4 and then tongue only the upbeats in eighth note runs. This makes you really feel where the swing part of the beat goes. In practice of course, you wouldn't tongue only upbeats all the time. But this exercise helps you develop a solid swing feel. Then work in different accents and articulations to make your lines really swing and flow.
I probably sound like a broken record on this issue, but transcribing solos that aren't too challenging for you, or at least a chorus of a solo, goes a long way to both improving these types of time issues and learning the changes of the tune. By transcribing, I mean learning the solo and playing along with the recording (not necessarily writing it down, although that is a good exercise as well). For me at least, it helps me focus on timing and rhythm because you really have to lock in precisely where the phrases start, and even where the specific notes land, when learning to play along with the recording itself. And it helps with understanding how great players swing in their playing. Here are a couple examples of solos over rhythm changes that I've worked on recently:


 

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I remember hearing Dexter Gordon talk about learning tunes, phrasing, and remembering melodies in an interview one time, and his advice was to learn the lyrics. Of course not all tunes have lyrics, but learning the words helps you to phrase more appropriately as well IF you’re singing them as you play...works on all tunes, not just on ballads. It kind of bothers me when people hack the **** out a common and well known melody like All of Me, Bye Bye Blackbird, A Train, or Girl From Ipanema by being lazy with articulation or over articulation to replace substance with what they perceive as style. Playing behind or ahead of the beat is an awesome trick that can be very useful, but if (and only if) you have a great command/ sense of time feel. In addition to having solid time you also have to have the confidence that what you’re playing works in the moment. I’m definitely not confident all the time with what I’m throwing out there, but I’ve learned that being rhythmically accurate is equally if not more important than playing the “right notes”
@J-Moen ...Maybe it’s time to start an interactive transcription thread with a monthly host to focus on entry-level/ easier material. 🤷‍♂️ I get frustrated and often lose focus so haven’t learned whole choruses/ solos of very many players at all so I’m looking into starting with things I (in theory) should already have the chops to play, like the old blues and r&b type stuff and building from there.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I am working on a similar practice routine this year, although at perhaps a somewhat more advanced level, since I have already memorized the changes and heads to dozens of standards many years ago. But I don't know every chord tone in all of those changes inside and out like the back of my hand. I think my new practice routine I started last November would probably be beneficial to you as well. I have been following the practicing strategies that Chad Lefkowitz Brown has been posting on his YouTube page and I also downloaded a few of his practicing materials from his website, jazzlessonvideos.com. I feel like I am finally beginning to master all of those changes inside and out, and practicing has become fun and exciting again. After practicing the standards in a couple of Chad's ebooks, I am finding amazing things popping out in my solos that are far more technically and harmonically advanced than anything I ever played before I started this practice routine. My favorite is Chad's 4 Tune Learning Exercises on 20 standard chord progressions. This ebook gives you 4 different ways of practicing through the changes of 20 jazz standards and after I practice all 4 of the ways of practicing a standard, I then go and solo on that standard and all kinds of wonderful things are coming out in my solos that I never dreamed of before I started using this ebook. I have also been using Chad's ebook 67 Pentatonic Phrases, and this has also been a game changer for me. Chad gives an introduction to these materials on his YouTube channel;
Those lessons I mentioned in my first post? Those are from Chad :) - I'm part of his online lessons from jazzslessonsvideos and am working through a lot of what you mention, and he includes a lot of it in my catered lessons, but in a more rigid, narrow scope, e.g. he's got me continuing my work on blues progressions from that exact lesson. That's why I excluded the blues from my list, as I am working them, but wanted to set myself some short/long term goals as well. But yes, I planned on use many of Chad's lessons for this goal of mine - especially love the memorizing chord progressions piece! (I assume you linked that video, but I can't see for sure as its completely blocked at my work). Chad (and Andrew Gould who helps with the lessons) are also very happy to allow me to work my own goals and provide me feedback/concepts to work on within those, which is what my intent is here. It's been extremely helpful on all fronts - and really helped me develop a lot.

I'd think about types of tunes (which you have done to some extent):

ii-V-I tunes
12 bar blues
minor blues
Rhythm changes
Circle of fifths tunes (rhythm changes covers a bit of this in the bridge, but I'm thinking of tunes like All of Me, Bill Bailey, Dinah, etc.)

I'd also go back well before bebop in learning tunes, to get that grounding. Like most people who started playing after 1970, I had this idea that jazz really started with Bird and Diz and all that older stuff was just weird corny stuff - but actually it's the basis for bebop and everything that follows. So for example, on some of the tunes you listed above:

Lester Leaps - go back to Lester's solos and the Basie performances. There are hundreds of recordings out there on rhythm changes that predate bebop.

A Train - again, go to Duke's recordings. Pay especial attention to the background patterns and riffs of the band.

Cherokee - go to Charlie Barnet before you go to Bird.

Frankly I am not overwhelmed by Take Five, but your interests may vary from mine. There aren't a lot of tunes in other than four or three, but if you feel improvising in something other than four is important to you at this point, I'd go for some of the many jazz waltzes out there rather than Take Five. They have interesting changes too.

For "circle of fifths" tunes, I'd do some good hard listening to Bix Beiderbecke's recordings and Fats Waller's recordings, then pick a couple from there.
This is a great source of information, thanks Turf! You're very right and here I can label it a bit better (excluding blues - as my instructor and I are working on that indefinitely):

All The Things You Are - ii-V-I Tune
Lester Leaps In - Rhythm Changes
A Train - A Train Changes (Duke is the reason I play music :D)
Cherokee - Bebop language (Going to use the Barnet version you mentioned for a great analysis of it before it was Bird-acized)
Jazz Waltz - Any Suggestions? ( or maybe even Footprints?) - Uncommon Time Practice
Blue Bossa - Bossa/Latin Practice
Misty - Ballad Practice
Impressions - Modal Jazz Concepts

And then I just picked out Autumn Leaves and Giant Steps because everyone seems to know those. I'd be happy to replace one with a circle of fifths tune though - All of Me piques my Interest)

There are tons of tunes that fit the bill for learning the common harmonic patterns that come up in jazz repertoire so pick songs you like and are drawn to, especially starting out. Finding others to play with on a regular basis also helps, particularly if you’re all working up the same material.
I don't wanna fall into a rut or dislike what I'm doing, so my intention is only to work on songs that I actually enjoy! I've actually had a few comments back on local gigs/bands, but everyone just seems to be stagnating as covid lingers.

@J-Moen

Learning these really hard tunes (Giant Steps, Cherokee, All the Things You Are) is an admirable goal. But I'd focus on the simpler tunes and the fundamentals first. Please take this as constructive criticism, not anything personal. I check out some of your recordings from time to time, and you're coming along great. You've got a nice sound and good improv ideas. But you still have some fundamental issues, namely, time and swing.

Your time is still very loose where you rush, drag and generally lack precision. If you were my student, I'd have you play whatever exercises you're working on with a metronome at all times. It's going to take practice and discipline over a long period to develop a good sense of time. In the months you've been playing, I haven't really heard much improvement in your time. So I think you're in a rut and have neglected or skipped this part of your development. But it is a fundamental and critical skill that has to be mastered. I drill this into my my kids and my students. They hate me for it at the time but thank me later. Unfortunately, it's really hard to enforce good time by yourself without a ton of self discipline. A teacher is really needed. So I suggest you get one as soon as it's safe to do so.

Along the same lines as time, your swing feel is still kind of hokey (dotted eighth, sixteenth-ish). In addition to listening and playing along with simple solos by the greats, a good exercise is to set the metronome to click only on 2 and 4 and then tongue only the upbeats in eighth note runs. This makes you really feel where the swing part of the beat goes. In practice of course, you wouldn't tongue only upbeats all the time. But this exercise helps you develop a solid swing feel. Then work in different accents and articulations to make your lines really swing and flow.

When the covid is over, I highly recommend you try to join a group like a big band. There's nothing like playing in a sax section to develop your time, style, swing, articulation, dynamics and overall musicianship. It's really hard to learn all of that in a vacuum. Best you can do now is listen, play along and stick to that metronome.
I really do appreciate this thorough and very guided comment! I take all criticism constructively and am definitely happy to have your comments! I'd be starting on the easier sets of tunes here to really build that foundation of easy standards to work up. I also am in lessons and I am happy to report the lessons are great and the feedback is great, but sadly online lessons are not as valuable as the immediate feedback of having an instructor in the room.

And you definitely sound like my instructor! My time has been atrocious as of late, early, late, lazy, off - and thats exactly what he's got me working - metronome with various beats, and trying to hit things right on time. Playing alongside with some of the greats and trying to match their timing. It's been a mess. He's also got me pulling back my ridiculous overswing (Although I like the Hokey term!). He's making me even it out completely now, while tonguing upbeats up/downbeats down - there's a great youtube video from chad on the subject. I'm constantly in the battle here, and often find myself not enforcing these things while I'm playing, but my practice is coming along (albeit slowly).

Hopefully a group is in my near future! Thanks again!
 

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Your plan is a great one. I am working on memorizing changes right now too. It seems like many I have spoken to, including both of my teachers over the years have said if they had to do one thing differently in their learning, it would be to have done more of this earlier. What works for me is learning the changes by the numbers and then learning it in multiple (ideally all 12) keys. At some point in this process, it seems like the relationships begin to makes sense and stick. Each tune gets easier then the one before it.
Tunes for consideration on your list:
Confirmation
Fly Me to the Moon.
 

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Two things:

Master easy songs. Save the hard stuff for later.

Time is super important. Without solid time, little else matters.

Playing live / having deadlines / recording really works.

Turns out it was three things. Enjoy.
Timing is everything and like you said, I rather play an easy song well than try to play above my capabilities. All of the difficult stull comes with time and there is only so much you can force.
 

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You and I have talked about some very similar things that being mentioned here. I just want to bring up one thing, even though I'm following this conversation. Let's take the term "memorize" out of your vocabulary, and instead think of it as "internalize."

-Bubba-
 

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Best think you can do is start playing these tunes you are memorizing in front of other people. There is something about performing them live in front of others that solidifies the whole process for me. I could work on memorizing a tune for weeks in the practice room and never get there but if I have to perform it in front of an audience I have to get my act together!
Much as I hate to admit it, discomfort is apparently the key to learning and neuroplasticity, particularly once past the easy years. Thanks to neurobiologist Andrew Huberman for nailing that down for me in his videos.
 
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You and I have talked about some very similar things that being mentioned here. I just want to bring up one thing, even though I'm following this conversation. Let's take the term "memorize" out of your vocabulary, and instead think of it as "internalize."

-Bubba-
Serious question -- can you internalize without memorizing?
 

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I probably sound like a broken record on this issue, but transcribing solos that aren't too challenging for you, or at least a chorus of a solo, goes a long way to both improving these types of time issues and learning the changes of the tune. By transcribing, I mean learning the solo and playing along with the recording (not necessarily writing it down, although that is a good exercise as well). For me at least, it helps me focus on timing and rhythm because you really have to lock in precisely where the phrases start, and even where the specific notes land, when learning to play along with the recording itself. And it helps with understanding how great players swing in their playing.
+1

I think I've mentioned it here before, but the first solos I ever transcribed were all Miles Davis solos from the late 50's, mostly on standards. These are sparse enough (in terms of note density) that they are easy to sing and memorize, but playing along with them will really give you a great sense of jazz rhythms and inflections.

I'd also advise not writing these down when you transcribe them (notice a theme here?). The practice of notating these solos can certainly be useful, but not when you're trying to break away from reading the page. If you write down these solos, you will read them.
 
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