Sax on the Web Forum banner

1 - 18 of 18 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,206 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I currently play a Morgan Jazz 4L (.085) and D'Addario Reserve 3's - perfect for ease of play and intonation. I love the dark, rich tone, too.

Problem - doesn't quite work in an ensemble situation: too dark, which is ironic because I want a dark tone like I have with it.* Sounds great in practice room or in duet with other horns, just not with the kind of groups I play with.


Looking at new FL Link 5* (.085) - my question is, will the additional baffle cause it to be too free blowing? I'm looking for the same positives as above, but with a bit more edge.* I don't want to move up in tip size and down in reed, I went the opposite direction a few month ago, and it's exactly what I was looking for - ish. I would consider moving up a reed size on a more free-blowing piece, though.

I've tried several reeds on the Morgan, trying to get more edge, but it starts to lose what I love about the tone and 'box out' (sounds 'boxy').

Thoughts?
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2015-
Joined
·
32,937 Posts
I currently play a Morgan Jazz 4L (.085) and D'Addario Reserve 3's - perfect for ease of play and intonation. I love the dark, rich tone, too.

Problem - doesn't quite work in an ensemble situation: too dark, which is ironic because I want a dark tone like I have with it.* Sounds great in practice room or in duet with other horns, just not with the kind of groups I play with.


Looking at new FL Link 5* (.085) - my question is, will the additional baffle cause it to be too free blowing? I'm looking for the same positives as above, but with a bit more edge.* I don't want to move up in tip size and down in reed, I went the opposite direction a few month ago, and it's exactly what I was looking for - ish. I would consider moving up a reed size on a more free-blowing piece, though.

I've tried several reeds on the Morgan, trying to get more edge, but it starts to lose what I love about the tone and 'box out' (sounds 'boxy').

Thoughts?
If your Morgan has a tip opening of .085, then it is a 5. I doubt that you will find much difference between the Morgan Jazz L and a Link HR of similar size due to baffle, although the Link may have a smaller chamber. If you like the Morgan, you might try the Morgan Jazz "M" (medium chamber). "Too free blowing" on a .085 sounds like a stretch to me - but you might find one facing more efficient than the other. I expect that the Morgan might be "more free blowing" than a Link of similar size for that reason.

What reeds have you tried? Are any of them a double cut?

What ligature are you using? If you are using a fabric lig, I encourage you to use a metal lig - a simple two-screw lig will damp less, thus provide more upper partial content that you hear as "edge".
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,308 Posts
Dr. G. already said most but you might just change to a Jazz select 2H reed to brighten up the sound. Also, I am not so sure what the problem with the dark sound is, is it what you hear (or not) when you play or are you unhappy with the sound as it is recorded?

Another option is to adjust your embouchure and play "brighter" if needed.
 

·
Registered
Alto sax, Tenor sax, Clarinet
Joined
·
1,307 Posts
I've tried several reeds on the Morgan, trying to get more edge, but it starts to lose what I love about the tone and 'box out' (sounds 'boxy').
Thoughts?
You are caught in a dilemma. You love the sound you have, but it is not working well in your ensemble. The issue I see (from your quote about trying other reeds) is that you are still giving more consideration to the sound you love. You may need to separate your personal sound and practice from the commercial aspect of matching the ensemble. You just might need to have two different sounds.
 

·
Moderator
Grafton alto | Martin Comm III tenor
Joined
·
28,919 Posts
You cannot assume same tip dimension on one make is the right one for you on another as the facing curve has a huge influence on how a specific tip feels in regard to response and/or resistance.

It sounds to me like you need to try some mouthpieces out, but I would agree - trying different reeds may be the cheaper, easier and better alternative
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
110 Posts
I'm a huge fan of the Morgans. I play a 5M on tenor and feel like I can get a very wide variety of sounds on it from R&B to concert band. I'd second the advice of checking one out, but they also make three models in between (L, FL, IN, NY, M in order of dark to bright) that you can check out if you don't want to sacrifice too much chamber volume. Another option is to get your same 5L in the excalibur model- it has the same inner dimensions but thinner walls to make it more lively. If you're into yours I would definitely recommend staying with a Morgan over rolling the dice with a link.

You can always reach out to the people at Morgan as well and let them know what you are looking for. In my experience they have been so knowledgeable and kind and I know they have a history of making custom modifications for people that ask.

All the best!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,106 Posts
I second Dexter 94, a smaller chamber Morgan (and they have a huge variety to choose from) is probably your best bet. You can’t beat them for high quality consistent quality!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,206 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
... I am not so sure what the problem with the dark sound is, is it what you hear (or not) when you play or are you unhappy with the sound as it is recorded?
Unhappy with what I hear when I play and what's on tape. The situation gets very loud and has a ton of energy and all what I love about my sound gets washed out, mostly due to the amount of air I'm pushing through the horn compared to what I do in the shed. A mic would help, but there's also the emotional state that I'll need to control to keep from breaking the 'air dam'.

Another option is to adjust your embouchure and play "brighter" if needed.
I made a conscious effort to do this last night, but again, the volume and energy was such that I had to blow my guts out, and that's just with a drummer and trumpet player (uses electronics, too).


I have a JT Link that I'm going to try to get some amount of control over before next week, I have two gigs (geh!). One is with the above configuration, the other is a quartet playing my comps (I used to play them in a quartet w/me on gtr); two tenors, bass, drums. It will make the first situation seem like 'time with puppies'; it will be insane.

Side note: both of these are first for me on horn, I have virtually no experience playing live on horn. It's not lost on me that I'm jumping face first into the lava, but it has to be done.


Yee hawl.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2015-
Joined
·
32,937 Posts
I made a conscious effort to do this last night, but again, the volume and energy was such that I had to blow my guts out, and that's just with a drummer and trumpet player (uses electronics, too).
"Blowing your guts out" is indeed possible, and not a good thing. I played with a loud fusion band in the '80s, and took a trip to the ER when I thought I was having a heart attack - turns out it was "only" pleurisy.

FWIW, blowing that much harder does not result in a sound that is much louder. Yes, the tone will change with intensity, but not always in a desirable way. If you are blowing louder just to hear yourself, get more of your horn's mic in the monitor mix or turn up the monitor. Many here have professed the benefits of sound reflectors - hung either on the bell of your horn or on the mic stand.

If you really need to be heard, and you have run out of volume, then it's time to put down your horn and reach for the cowbell. :twisted:

Above all else, enjoy the ride.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,321 Posts
If you want more power and volume while un-mic'd, you must get a bigger tip opening due to the laws of physics. Bigger tip means higher max amplitude which translates to higher max volume. Baffle also contributes to this since it projects more or less of the highs, allowing your sound to cut better.

With enough shedding (right up your alley), you will adjust to a more open MP and get the volume you want. But you're fighting a losing battle on a small tip MP.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2015-
Joined
·
32,937 Posts
If you want more power and volume while un-mic'd, you must get a bigger tip opening due to the laws of physics. Bigger tip means higher max amplitude which translates to higher max volume.
Is it really so simple? I see nothing there regarding air pressure or velocity. Where does reed stiffness come into play? Why is my soprano so darn loud with only a .070" tip opening?

Certainly there is more to it, as I am able to get more volume and projection with a close tip mouthpiece relative to many others on larger tipped mouthpieces. I play tip openings on tenor ranging from .090 to .120".
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,206 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Oh lawdy, I'm going to end up with 500 mouthpieces and as many boxes of reeds. I thought I had found my setup, finally.

Thank you all for the info, for sure!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,321 Posts
Is it really so simple? I see nothing there regarding air pressure or velocity. Where does reed stiffness come into play? Why is my soprano so darn loud with only a .070" tip opening?

Certainly there is more to it, as I am able to get more volume and projection with a close tip mouthpiece relative to many others on larger tipped mouthpieces. I play tip openings on tenor ranging from .090 to .120".
Yes it is that simple. Obviously you have to put more pressure behind it (more energy) with the optimum reed stiffness to get the theoretical max. If the reed is too hard (or soft) or the baffle isn't optimal, then you won't hit the max. I figured those details went without saying.

So, get your optimum reed on your Selmer C* and likewise on your Berg 120/0, blow as hard as you can (while maintaining control of course), and tell me which is louder.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2015-
Joined
·
32,937 Posts
Yes it is that simple. Obviously you have to put more pressure behind it (more energy) with the optimum reed stiffness to get the theoretical max. If the reed is too hard (or soft) or the baffle isn't optimal, then you won't hit the max. I figured those details went without saying.

So, get your optimum reed on your Selmer C* and likewise on your Berg 120/0, blow as hard as you can (while maintaining control of course), and tell me which is louder.
That leaves the issue of whether theoretical max is achievable on both mouthpieces, and also neglects baffle profile, chamber size... "Simple" is telling me that I can compare oranges and apples, and get a satisfactory first approximation.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,975 Posts
Is it really so simple? I see nothing there regarding air pressure or velocity. Where does reed stiffness come into play? Why is my soprano so darn loud with only a .070" tip opening?

Certainly there is more to it, as I am able to get more volume and projection with a close tip mouthpiece relative to many others on larger tipped mouthpieces. I play tip openings on tenor ranging from .090 to .120".
There is a region where going larger in tip opening gives you more volume. But this “simple physics” breaks down as you go past a certain max that differs from player to player. Your body just can not deliver the volume and pressure of air to support going large in tip opening. Before that point you will most likely loose the ability to play with good intonation and also softer volumes you may need.

I have seen players use tip openings up to .150”. I had a RPC that large once but could only sound like Plas Johnson on it.

I measured one tenor Berg SS at .165” but the player was biting down the reed to close off the tip opening in order to play it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
33 Posts
Is it really so simple? I see nothing there regarding air pressure or velocity. Where does reed stiffness come into play? Why is my soprano so darn loud with only a .070" tip opening?

Certainly there is more to it, as I am able to get more volume and projection with a close tip mouthpiece relative to many others on larger tipped mouthpieces. I play tip openings on tenor ranging from .090 to .120".
Dr. G, I don't think (as an engineer) that comparing absolute tip openings between different saxophone categories is meaningful. I think a metric would be the tip opening divided by the facing length. That would provide a relative metric comparable between a soprano and a tenor. I have a soprano but no tenor, but from visuals I guess the facing length on a tenor MPC is close to double the facing length on a soprano MPC. Taking the suggested relative metric would indicate that your soprano MPC has a (relatively) larger tip opening as your tenor MPC. Do you think the relative metric makes sense?

- Manfred
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2015-
Joined
·
32,937 Posts
Dr. G, I don't think (as an engineer) that comparing absolute tip openings between different saxophone categories is meaningful. I think a metric would be the tip opening divided by the facing length. That would provide a relative metric comparable between a soprano and a tenor. I have a soprano but no tenor, but from visuals I guess the facing length on a tenor MPC is close to double the facing length on a soprano MPC. Taking the suggested relative metric would indicate that your soprano MPC has a (relatively) larger tip opening as your tenor MPC. Do you think the relative metric makes sense?

- Manfred
Thanks, Manfred.

I agree that there is much more to the matter (baffle height and contour, facing curve, length of facing, chamber dimension, etc.).

I opened another thread to encourage discussion on the topic: “Where does VOLUME (spl) come from”.

https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showt...-does-VOLUME-(spl)-come-from&highlight=Volume

Please feel free to participate there.

Cheers,

George
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,028 Posts
I play a 6 Link Early Babbitt that may not be the loudest mouthpiece but it enables me to get the type of sound that carries. There’s a happy medium of a good sound and a loud sound.
I like the suggestion of a smaller chamber. That’s why the Early Babbitts play so well.
 
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
Top