[JimD]

There's a late Zephyr for sale in London, little information available but it has the single strap loop and the key cups look to be silver so I'm assuming this is very late. I'm starting to think I'd like a Zephyr Special to keep my S20 company but I haven't looked at prices for a long time and this initially caught my eye. Now, the price they have on it is £1900 which seems like wishful thinking to me not to mention outrageous, my guess is that's the price the seller wanted rather than their valuation. My chances of getting a Zephyr special are slim but I'm suffering from lock down syndrome. What sort of price would you expect for the horn I described? I know they're cheaper in the US, not to mention more plentiful, but pound for dollar usually works. While we're about it what does a good Zephyr Special go for these days?

I know you're going to ask for pics so here's a link

https://www.howarth.uk.com/2H Instruments/2H_Images.aspx?Item=4503

 

[cymru97]

Granted I am in the US, but that price seems awfully high for a late Zephyr with the cheapened keywork.

Frankly, the prices of sweet spot Zephyrs and Zephyr Specials has gotten pretty ridiculous. They are great horns, but they’ve really gone up in the last 15 years.

To be completely honest, the best bang for your buck in the King line up is the Cleveland from the 1950s. These typically have lacquer body AND keys and usually have a tower engraving or a drum major hat and crossed batons. The keywork isn’t nearly as refined as an S20 or Zephyr, but the King sound and vibe is there.

I’m not necessarily telling you to get one, but definitely add them to your research. I’ve had two and they were both great Kings.

 

[JayeLID]

On the other hand, what people THINK to be the 'sweet spot' is a smaller serial range than the actual sweet spot really is....wink, wink, nudge, nudge, saynomore, saynomore.

BUT, the one at Howarths ? It is way overpriced. That is after they redesigned the keywork, as Cymru says...and it's clunkier keywork.
The tipoff is the pinky table. Good Zephs have the Cloverleaf pinky table, not this kind.

That horn, in completely overhauled shape, is perhaps worth $850usd tops. So even in Europs, I cannot imagine it has a market value of more than $1350usd tops (this assuming it is in fully serviced shape).

So, a sweet-spot Zephyr, non-Special, fetches around $1400-1600 on this side of the pond, in good, serviced shape.

The Zeph Specials fetch considerably more, due to the bling. Around $1800-2200 here.

As cymru refers to, tho...once you get over around $1650...you start to get into S20 budget territory..so I am not sure why someone would spend $1700+ on a Zeph, unless it was orig lacq immaculate.
At THAT price point I'd usually suggest folks start looking for a later S20 or 2414/16. (Not that this helps you much, OP, since you already have a 20).


+1 on Clevelands....one of my favorite models of King.

But the Cleves suffered the same keywork revision as the Zephs, so stay with Cleves 110,XXX or under in serial #.

 

[milandro]

I have bought and sold one of these, It needed a full overhaul ( and was smelling pretty bad) , had no case and was in a state not very different from this . I sold it to a trader in Belgium who, no doubt would have sold it for a lot more after investing in a overhaul and a case. I got €1100 for it.

So, I don’t think this is a bad price. I have seen local shops selling these for €2500 or thereabouts. S20 go for more but not so much more and I’d rather have an S20.

 

[JimD]

Thanks for your replies. The US prices are pretty close to what I imagined and fully serviced about £1300 in the uk. Even at that I wouldn't feel that I was getting much of a deal. If, as Milandro says, this grade of horn is being sold at this price then I'm not optimistic about better versions or a Z Special though I'd be prepared for something of a premium on one of them. I can get a used Keilwerth SX90R for not much more. Most of the S20s you see here are post 60s and aren't really worth much more than £2500 maybe £3000 tops. My series 3 is only valued at £4000.

The shop's shut at present so there won't be any movement there for quite some time, I'd be surprised if it moves quickly or at all, but I live to be surprised.

 

[milandro]

Prices vary greatly around the world, especially for American horns, in Europe their price is certainly higher than in the states (on the other hand if you buy one in the US you will be paying shipping and VAT , don’t forget that!).

Shops , of course, as a premium. In the NL it is not unusual for shops to ask (and get) in excess of €1500 for a 615 !

 

[JimD]

Yes so I see, one for sale now for €1695. I’m obviously out of touch. It’s starting to look like the difference between buying cheap wine and the more pricey stuff, with the cheap one you are paying mostly for the bottling and the tax, with the cheap sax you are mostly paying for the repad and the tax.

 

[milandro]

I’d say that this is a very accurate description of the local situation as I witness in many cases, at least around my parts ( and Europe in general).

 

[jazzcat58]

Yes so I see, one for sale now for €1695. I'm obviously out of touch. It's starting to look like the difference between buying cheap wine and the more pricey stuff, with the cheap one you are paying mostly for the bottling and the tax, with the cheap sax you are mostly paying for the repad and the tax.

I would keep looking for a special jim if thats what you want, according to matt stohrer[repair specialist] he reckons they are the best of the kings!
including s20s etc.
Yes you dont often see them, but the ones ive heard sound excellent.
A price around 2000/3000$ in good condition, is what you might pay? im not sure ,then there is customs/fees of course.
Ive bought horns from the US, and its a gamble but ive been pleased with the ones ive had, do plenty of research as best you can.
With a bit of luck one in europe/uk may appear.
Heres matt stohrer,s zephyr special article.

 

[JimD]

Thanks jazzcat58, great video, that's the one I want.The hoops you have to go through to get something from the US, and the cost, are not something I'm keen to get into, even though that's where I am most likely to find what I want. I've bought mouthpieces from the States and that was plenty tedious. I really prefer to play the thing although there are a couple of people I expect I could rely on online. If I decide to commit myself I'll probably go Woodwind Exchange in Bradford, if they ever get to re-open, and probably come back with something completely different.

 

[JayeLID]

I would keep looking for a special jim if thats what you want, according to matt stohrer[repair specialist] he reckons they are the best of the kings!
including s20s etc.
Yes you dont often see them, but the ones ive heard sound excellent.
A price around 2000/3000$ in good condition, is what you might pay? im not sure ,then there is customs/fees of course.
Ive bought horns from the US, and its a gamble but ive been pleased with the ones ive had, do plenty of research as best you can.
With a bit of luck one in europe/uk may appear.
Heres matt stohrer,s zephyr special article.

Interesting article, but a lot of subjectivity in there too.

Look, King was at the top of their game starting at about serial 260,XXX or so....for LONG time. It baffles me that anyone can actually suggest that there was really only a relatively SHORT period of a few years where "those were the hands-down best" the company ever made.

There's just a LOT of presumption in there. I respect Matt a lot...I have also overhauled at least 20 S20's ....and even more 'sweet-spot' Zephs....and I have this tech-nerdy tendency to sometimes record measurements and specifications of different examples of the same model.

They were damn good, Zephs...for a LONG time.

I just am saying this because, Jim....you COULD set your sights on a Special....BUT...the extra cost you'd be paying is solely buying pearl Bling, and the "special" engraved in the name.
If the pearls and the engraving is what you want, and you are cool with paying an extra $500-600 to have them...then go for it.

BUT of your expectation is "this Zeph special will be a better musical instrument play-wise than a common Zeph"....that is an ersatz expectation.

You buy a 'regular' ol' Zeph within a serial range bracketed within a certain 140,XXX digits....you get the EXACT same horn, minus the aforementioned frilly stuff...

 

[JimD]

The bling isn't the thing, I would be worried about what happens when they drop off. As you say I was influenced by the idea that it is a better horn and I take your point, there was obviously a lot of overlap going on with Kings around that time. The only thing is how it plays, the S20 I have looks like a dog, and did when I bought it, I was able to compare it with 4 or 5 other S20s that were all nice and shiny and quite a bit cheaper, but I chose the ugly one because it outplayed all the others and the 10M and Mk6s I tried at the same time. There was a beautiful silver Mk6 from just after the war with ebonite where the pearls should be and I spent a lot of time willing it to be the best but sadly it wasn't.

 

[JayeLID]

Yeah, if you just got a regular old Zeph in that rather large serial range, you'd have the same horn as the Special, then. So if the bling isn't the thing, you'd 'lose' nothing by acquiring a 'run-of-the-mill' one, IMHO.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Are Howarths open online or by phone? Nothing to be lost by making a realistic offer, especially these days. However it it's on consignment it's not their call necessarily.

 

[JimD]

They are open online but they are very close to me so I can wait and give it a try when they reopen, although I really don’t think I want to pay even close to the asking price for what I think they are selling. Nothing lost by dropping in though, I could end up with Dolnet Belair they have, these things can get out of hand. All of their second hand stuff is sold by them on commission so I’m sure offers are possible.

 

[saxcop]

I have had several Zephyrs over the years and still have a few. In vintage horns, King is my favorite. They seem to be getting a little harder to find. My favorite Zephyr right now is a 287xxx with the three ring strap ring, and eyebrow guards. It has a dark brown patina and I would put it up with the best horns I own. The other one I have is in the early 300xxx. it is also great.

I also have a Zephyr special alto and tenor that both need overhauls. The Special plays enough that I can tell it will be a beast. I also have a 37 Zephyr alto and tenor, which some say is like a Voll tru II. I think that is close, but not exactly, as I have a Voll Tru needing anover haul, and recently overhauled my 37 Zephyr. There is differences. I actually love the sound of the 37, but is doesn't have the roar of the later. To top it off I have a1951 S20 with full pearls.

The most beautiful engraved Zephyrs are the early ones. They don't sound like a S20, but they do sound great. I don't plan on selling mine. The late 40s and early 50's do sound like a S20. I have no experience with the later, like in the OP's link. I have avoided them just because of what is said around here, but I have my doubts about that.

In the US if you watch you can find a good Zephyr for about $1000 US. At that price expect it to need an overhaul. I actually think Jaylid under estimated the cost of the specials. I think they would run nearly double and need an overhaul. You would have a hard time finding one overhauled for under 3k.