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Large chamber mouthpieces + modern horns = palm key issues

7K views 55 replies 19 participants last post by  kymarto 
#1 ·
Has anyone else had trouble getting the palm keys to speak fully when they play a large, barrel chamber mouthpiece on a more modern horn? Is there any good way to fix this? Thanks!

My intuition is that the horn was designed for a mouthpiece which generates much faster moving air at that point in the bore. Maybe some kind of liner could help?
 
#5 ·
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My intuition is that the horn was designed for a mouthpiece which generates much faster moving air at that point in the bore. Maybe some kind of liner could help?
It is not the air speed. The phenomenon pertains to acoustics and not aerodynamics. The relevant variable is the distribution of the volume inside the mouthpiece (short and stubby versus more elongated).
However, you are correct in thinking that something that reduces the volume of the chamber might work. If it does, you will have to pull the mouthpiece to be in tune.
 
#9 ·
I’ve found a similar scenario when using an old Conn mouthpiece.
This piece has a massive chamber.
Although I have refaced it and put a decent amount of putty in to raise the floor, it still plays incredibly flat.
If I removed the cork from the neck altogether, I think I could maybe just push it on enough to play in tune.
However it currently plays flat over the whole range of the horn.
I think I may also tend to blow a little flat, which doesn’t help matters.
Definitely no leaks in this horn either.
 
#16 ·
I've found a similar scenario when using an old Conn mouthpiece.
This piece has a massive chamber.
Although I have refaced it and put a decent amount of putty in to raise the floor, it still plays incredibly flat.
If I removed the cork from the neck altogether, I think I could maybe just push it on enough to play in tune.
However it currently plays flat over the whole range of the horn.
I think I may also tend to blow a little flat, which doesn't help matters.
Definitely no leaks in this horn either.
If your mpc is playing flat you need to reduce the chamber size, right in the back before the throat and the back end of the baffle. You can keep a lot of the characteristic sound and response of the mpc if you add material as far back as possible, not in the baffle area itself. Just keep adding material until it plays in tune. I've modified tarogato mpcs that way and got them up 50 cents in pitch without seriously affecting how they play.
 
#11 ·
If you modify the mpc so it plays on the Vito, how will it affect how it plays on your Aristocrat? Assuming you want to use the same mpc on both horns. Frankly I'd just get another mpc unless the problem lies with the saxophone. There's probably much better mpcs out there than the one you're using anyway.
 
#15 ·
You cannot start modifying the bore of the sax without causing intonational, timbre or response issues, if not all three. I agree with MojoBari that most likely the facing curve could use tweaking, but that will change how the mpc plays. I agree again with him to get some chewing gum and try to modify the chamber--most probably in the forward area. I'd try mid-baffle, which will not affect the sound as much as the front baffle, but play around as see what happens if you add material at various points. I'd also like to know what you mean by the palms not "speaking fully". Does that mean that they don't want to sound, or are weak, or what? Not sounding fully sounds to me like they play, but you are not happy with the volume you are getting out of them. What happens if you try to play forte?
 
#18 ·
I'd rather not modify the facing or the chamber -- it's my favorite playing mouthpiece and works wonderfully on my Aristocrat.

To clarify on the palm keys, if I finger the palm D, unless I kind of close my throat and using voicing (kind of like for altissimo), the palm D will drop down to how it sounds if the octave key wasn't pressed. Does that make sense?

In contrast if I don't really voice at all on the Aristocrat, the palm D plays the correct note.
 
#20 ·
It seems I read the initial post wrong.
For some reason I thought the OP said that his horn played flat in the palm keys with this mouthpiece.
Therefore my earlier posts are not really relevant after all.
I will however say that for me it takes more work to voice palm key notes when using very large chamber mouthpieces with low baffles.
 
#22 ·
man, if you got a mouthpiece playing good with a good horn, why fix what ain't broke? it's ok if different pieces play well with different horns. (i don't know what size horn we're talking here, but i got a Buescher pickle that was opened up for a VI soprano, and it's the bomb.)
 
#26 ·
What are we considering “large chamber”?

in my experience I don’t have issues with this and I play Link-like pieces like Wanne Ambika or Phil Tone Mosaic. I think smaller chambers can assist with upper register response though, so maybe it just requires more focused air or better voicing on your part?
 
#27 ·
What are we considering "large chamber"?

in my experience I don't have issues with this and I play Link-like pieces like Wanne Ambika or Phil Tone Mosaic. I think smaller chambers can assist with upper register response though, so maybe it just requires more focused air or better voicing on your part?
I think what me and zxcvbnm are referring to are the large chamber mouthpieces used by the school of Rascher students in classical playing. Those mouthpieces are insanely large chamber.
 
#29 · (Edited)
In general I don't think the argument that new horns need smaller chambered mouthpieces makes any sense. Otto Links have been selling just fine, the entire time. I don't think any horns were designed specifically to be played with peashooter mouthpieces.
Granted, a Buescher or Caravan have a bigger chamber.

Couple questions, how are your overtones coming out on both horns? Can you hit those palm notes fingering a low Bb? Should be able to play the D and the F with a low Bb. On either horn?

Sorry, I have no idea what level you are. But if you can't get those overtones, I feel like there's at least some chance it's control on your end. Of course, there is a chance there's a mechanical problem with the horn.

Or the mouthpiece isn't pushed in enough. I got a new bari piece and played it for a little while before checking it against a tuner. It was a Benjamin Allen piece with large chamber and almost no baffle. The palm keys weren't coming out well which I chalked up to getting used to the piece. Finally played it with a group and realized I had to push it in way farther than I thought. Once I got it where it should be the palm keys were just fine.

Another simple problem which seems obvious but could have slipped your attention, is the active pip opening? Or clogged?
 
#30 ·
Acoustically speaking, what is unequivocal is that the mouthpiece volume must mimic the missing volume of the conic apex (where the neck is cut off to give an opening to put the mouthpiece) or the impedances of the tube will be thrown off from the ideal, causing any of a number of intonational problems. Nor is it enough that the volume be correct; the shape also has a bearing on the notes above second octave A, as there is a second order correction having to do with the Helmholtz resonance of the mouthpiece. In practical terms what this means is that the shape of the mouthpiece, even if it is placed on the neck to have the correct volume (and therefore have things in tune overall) can definitely affect the intonation of the highest notes, definitely including altissimos. And it is certainly true that a mouthpiece mismatch can screw up the most careful design of the rest of the air column.
 
#31 ·
In practical terms what this means is that the shape of the mouthpiece, even if it is placed on the neck to have the correct volume (and therefore have things in tune overall) can definitely affect the intonation of the highest notes, definitely including altissimos.
Yeah, but he's saying the palm keys are sounding an octave down. No? That's not an intonation issue.
 
#44 ·
Sorry, I'm just trying to brainstorm some possible reasons or solutions as I'm curious about this stuff. I also play really big chambers and have been woodshedding overtones and altissimo lately, so it's especially interesting to me. And maybe I have too much time on my hands....
I think if you ask around you'll find plenty of people having similar problems with palm keys for a whole slew of reasons.
The questions about overtones though, both playing that F3 from a low Bb or from a palm F fingering without the octave key, should say something about the acoustical abilities of that mouthpiece on that horn to produce that pitch.
 
#45 · (Edited)
I just did a few experiments, and I think I've ruled out the large chamber theory. I used a large chamber tenor mouthpiece on an alto, which should have a larger chamber than any alto mouthpiece. It played all the palm notes fine with no effort. Then I went as high as I could in the altissimo and made it up to Eb4 (couldn't quite get to zxcvbnm's F4), no problems. Then I tried without to octave key to duplicate an octave pip blockage. I could still play the palm notes, but it definitely took an effort to keep them from dropping. Altissimo wasn't much more of a problem without the octave key. So a blocked pip isn't as much of an issue with altissimo, explaining why the palm keys had issues but the altissimo didn't.

So I think a blocked pip is the most likely culprit. But I can say from experience that certain synthetic reeds try to drop the octave on the palm notes as well. I don't remember if the OP mentioned playing synthetics, but that could also be the culprit. I definitely have that problem with Legere. Even though zxcvbnm has exceptional altissimo skills, that doesn't necessarily rule out a technique issue on the palm notes.
 
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