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Discussion Starter · #41 ·
It's just my guess if you can pop out a D3 or F3 while fingering a low Bb but you can't play a D3 normally, there is something mechanical going on besides a mouthpiece miss-match.
I can play up to F4.
 

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Discussion Starter · #43 ·
Right, I'd really think it would be an octave pip issue. Did you try other mouthpieces on the horn yet?
Actually maybe that doesn't make sense either.
Can you finger the palm F without the octave key and make the F3 come out from the overtone?
I don't have the horn ready to play right now but given that someone else had the same problem, I feel more certain that it's a fundamental acoustical issue.
 

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Sorry, I'm just trying to brainstorm some possible reasons or solutions as I'm curious about this stuff. I also play really big chambers and have been woodshedding overtones and altissimo lately, so it's especially interesting to me. And maybe I have too much time on my hands....
I think if you ask around you'll find plenty of people having similar problems with palm keys for a whole slew of reasons.
The questions about overtones though, both playing that F3 from a low Bb or from a palm F fingering without the octave key, should say something about the acoustical abilities of that mouthpiece on that horn to produce that pitch.
 

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I just did a few experiments, and I think I've ruled out the large chamber theory. I used a large chamber tenor mouthpiece on an alto, which should have a larger chamber than any alto mouthpiece. It played all the palm notes fine with no effort. Then I went as high as I could in the altissimo and made it up to Eb4 (couldn't quite get to zxcvbnm's F4), no problems. Then I tried without to octave key to duplicate an octave pip blockage. I could still play the palm notes, but it definitely took an effort to keep them from dropping. Altissimo wasn't much more of a problem without the octave key. So a blocked pip isn't as much of an issue with altissimo, explaining why the palm keys had issues but the altissimo didn't.

So I think a blocked pip is the most likely culprit. But I can say from experience that certain synthetic reeds try to drop the octave on the palm notes as well. I don't remember if the OP mentioned playing synthetics, but that could also be the culprit. I definitely have that problem with Legere. Even though zxcvbnm has exceptional altissimo skills, that doesn't necessarily rule out a technique issue on the palm notes.
 

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Yamaha 82ZII Tenor, Yamaha 481 Flute, Fender American Telecaster, Martin Acoustic
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Lets get back tomsauare one. Does this horn play properly with other mouthpieces? You need to thin out some of the variables.
Before you go crazy, check the Vito for leaks. Palm keys love to leak. I have never had any issues with large champer MPC's on any horn.
 

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Definitely check for leaks, but if you can’t play high F, all the palm keys are open so couldn’t possibly be a palm key leak. In my experience palm key leaks cause greater resistance in lower notes, not problems with high notes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #49 ·
I just did a few experiments, and I think I've ruled out the large chamber theory. I used a large chamber tenor mouthpiece on an alto, which should have a larger chamber than any alto mouthpiece. It played all the palm notes fine with no effort. Then I went as high as I could in the altissimo and made it up to Eb4 (couldn't quite get to zxcvbnm's F4), no problems. Then I tried without to octave key to duplicate an octave pip blockage. I could still play the palm notes, but it definitely took an effort to keep them from dropping. Altissimo wasn't much more of a problem without the octave key. So a blocked pip isn't as much of an issue with altissimo, explaining why the palm keys had issues but the altissimo didn't.

So I think a blocked pip is the most likely culprit. But I can say from experience that certain synthetic reeds try to drop the octave on the palm notes as well. I don't remember if the OP mentioned playing synthetics, but that could also be the culprit. I definitely have that problem with Legere. Even though zxcvbnm has exceptional altissimo skills, that doesn't necessarily rule out a technique issue on the palm notes.
Interesting. I don't think the upper octave pip is blocked but I can check. Maybe in the worst case it needs to be bored out to a larger diameter?
 

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Interesting. I don't think the upper octave pip is blocked but I can check. Maybe in the worst case it needs to be bored out to a larger diameter?
I think you have to be very careful with the diameter. I wouldn't do anything drastic.

Is the synthetic reed issue a possibility?
 

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selmer 26 nino, 22 curved sop, super alto, King Super 20 and Martin tenors, Stowasser tartogatos
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Interesting. I don't think the upper octave pip is blocked but I can check. Maybe in the worst case it needs to be bored out to a larger diameter?
Be careful. It should not be a diameter issue, which has been carefully chosen by the maker. Too large a pip will sharpen the notes that use that pip and can cause other problems.
 

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Discussion Starter · #54 ·
Be careful. It should not be a diameter issue, which has been carefully chosen by the maker. Too large a pip will sharpen the notes that use that pip and can cause other problems.
Chosen by the maker with a certain type of mouthpiece in mind.
 

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I honestly think there is just an acoustical mismatch between certain "French" or modern style horns and large chamber mouthpieces.
Hey so I just tried something and I think I figured it out for me so it might be the same for you.
I just put a tiny bit of teflon tape over the neck of my buffet 400 and slapped my caravan mouthpiece on it and ALL of the palm keys are speaking very very well.
I have a leak at the neck tenon.
Maybe you have a saxophone with the same leaks?
I need to get this fixed soon haha
 

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Chosen by the maker with a certain type of mouthpiece in mind.
Not a question of mouthpiece, but of a certain combination of reactance and damping to sufficiently disrupt the first mode impedance peak at both soft and loud dynamic levels. That being said, it is well known that saxophone pips are very poorly designed, in that the pips tend to be too long and too large in diameter. Drilling out the hole will not help, and can seriously affect other notes, and can and probably will cause intonation and possibly response problems. The only way to optimize a pip is to shorten it and actually make the hole smaller, but this is by no means arbitrary.
 
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