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Discussion Starter · #61 ·
Z, you should know my feelings on this by now...

Tenor - It's all that matters.
what do you mean by tenor? there's other saxophones in addition to the one in the left in my avatar? I thought the one in the right was sort of a key charm they gave to good customers when they purchased the real saxophone.
 

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So - back to the thread topic. Do you know how the instrument was stored? Is it one that was put back in the case after playing?
The worst corrossion seems to be on instruments stored in damp conditions.

My house is near the sea and suffers a bit from damp. From what I read my instruments should suffer. I don't use some instrument very much and they stay in the case(s). Other that I use a lot tend to stay on the stand. I've not noticed any difference in corrosion.
Somewhere you mention an alkaline body chemistry. If it's down to the players sweat getting on the instrument with part lacquer finish mean that all these modern fake antique effects are going to look terrible in a few years?
 

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Discussion Starter · #63 ·
The instrument was properly taken care of, used sparingly (meaning not 12 hours per day, we're talking of a clarinet player doubling on tenor here) and he's the most careful guy I've ever seen when it comes to his instruments. Stored in the case after swabbing and drying pads, I wouln't have the patience nor the memory of all the things he does on his instruments after he finished his practice or gig.
 

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I was just curious. It seems to have more metal gone than usual.

Any tips for removing lacquer on a silver plated instrument? My newish tenor has been lacquered to keep the shiny finish but the lacquer is poor and easily comes away in little flakes - on some parts of the instrument. I'm trying to decide whether to remove it all.
 

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Indistinguishable Resident Buescher Bigot and Foru
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Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn, and caldron bubble.

Fillet of a fenny snake,
In the caldron boil and bake;
Eye of newt, and toe of frog,
Wool of bat, and tongue of dog,
Adder's fork, and blind-worm's sting,
Lizard's leg, and owlet's wing,—

To remove the lacquer of powerful trouble,
Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.
 

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Discussion Starter · #69 ·
Just asked a UK copper/ brass expert about this an he confirms the lacquer is contributing to the problem. He says to strip the lacquer and polish regularly with a good wax polish.
www.copperinfo.co.uk
Boy it's heartwarming when you use your time selflessly trying to illustrate people as to why some repairmen my recommend delacquer... you back it up with pictures and the observation of the phenomenon thru years and yearas of being in the trade, you have no dog in the race since it isn't like you'll be selling your services to the general population in this forum... and if you don't have the luck of being backed up by a british expert... well... don't want to think about that... luckily I was vouchered in as being right.
:twisted:

Do you remove the springs before cooking or do they contribute to the flavor of the broth?
Everything comes out before boiling. Springs, keys, pads, etc.
I don't reuse springs if I'm not specifically told to do so. And On Bueschers (let me get ahead of your next question :mrgreen: ) my recommendation is to remove the Nortons while you can unscrew them, use a pilot bushing and blued needle springs. I have my horns like that and the action is greatly improved.
 

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Boy it's heartwarming when you use your time selflessly trying to illustrate people as to why some repairmen my recommend delacquer... you back it up with pictures and the observation of the phenomenon thru years and yearas of being in the trade, you have no dog in the race since it isn't like you'll be selling your services to the general population in this forum... and if you don't have the luck of being backed up by a british expert... well... don't want to think about that... luckily I was vouchered in as being right.
I wasn't disagreeing that it happened - I just didn't see it as galvanic corrosion where you have two different metals forming a cell. The problem here would seem to be caused by the person and their handling of the instrument. The broken lacquer traps moisture/ chemicals in to form pitting.
In my experience that amount of degredation is not the norm. I have seen some instruments that are very worn and not been able to see why they has corroded more than similar ones which remain in good condition. I wanted to try and understand why it was so bad in that case whereas it isn't in others, like my own instrument, which are of similar age. On my Selmer the lacquer is intact.
So there seem to be two choices. Relacquer or remove the lacquer. (If your body chemistry is corrosive. )

I thought boiling didn't work on modern lacquers?
 

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Discussion Starter · #71 ·
I wasn't disagreeing that it happened - I just didn't see it as galvanic corrosion where you have two different metals forming a cell. The problem here would seem to be caused by the person and their handling of the instrument. The broken lacquer traps moisture/ chemicals in to form pitting.
In my experience that amount of degredation is not the norm. I have seen some instruments that are very worn and not been able to see why they has corroded more than similar ones which remain in good condition. I wanted to try and understand why it was so bad in that case whereas it isn't in others, like my own instrument, which are of similar age. On my Selmer the lacquer is intact.
So there seem to be two choices. Relacquer or remove the lacquer. (If your body chemistry is corrosive. )

I thought boiling didn't work on modern lacquers?
I was being funny, not really pissed at the British Expert comment. Actually I like that you have consulted with a properly trained person (meaning, his field of expertise being copper and brass) It eases my mind of thinking wether I was being objective regarding my delacquering recommendation or not. And I was being. Wich is nice because I do like the bare brass horns better. And sometimes your mind play games around your expectations.

Getting back on the horn to wich this thread refers, this horn was not "spottled". It had like 90% of its original lacquer in a very good to excellent condition. There was some scratches around the strap hook area and the engraving area peeled off as usually seen. The most destructive pitting was around the bell engraving area, coincidentally the removabell wasn't glued (It wasn't glued from the factory! just sort of "press fitted", on euro horns) wich I relate to the issue of not having the bell and the main body solidly connected. (soft solder solid!) or isolated (epoxi or glued joint) So I wouldn't be sure as your horn being "intact". Perhaps if we delacquer it, it's going to have pitting too!

One thing I've observed is that sometimes on all horns, but mostly on selmers (perhaps "french brass" is jive for what I'll describe) is that the different components in the brass alloy can "break" and act like cells at what I would call "microstructure level". This is where the most desctructive pitting occurs. I've seen horns with pits from side to side of the wall (sheet metal)

What I'm trying to say here is that the only option that gives ME peace of mind regarding my horns preservation and finish, is to prescind of finish in any form. And to avoid polishes other than premium carnauba wax and maybe one of those meguiars or 3M liquid preps in wich there's stoddard solvent also to degrease and clean while waxing.
 

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I thought you may be being funny - but there's a lot of folk that like to think their years of experience is worth more than what science says. I'm not much of a scientist myself, but I do appreciate the scientific approach of finding causes.
People don't like it when the science says materials don't make much difference. Mouthpiece makers and manufacturers continue to state how different materials give different sounds. I appreciate the opinion from experience but we've seen how science may not agree. As I don't know much about anything I like to do a bit of digging to try and make sense of things, in my own mind. It's good to see you are right. I like it when experience and science come together and agree with each other.

I was a bit surprised by the wax suggestion as wouldn't it do a similar thing to partial lacquer i.e. trap some moisture under the wax?
 

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Discussion Starter · #74 ·
Should I wax my old silver plated TT horns too?
Yes!

I thought you may be being funny - but there's a lot of folk that like to think their years of experience is worth more than what science says. I'm not much of a scientist myself, but I do appreciate the scientific approach of finding causes.
People don't like it when the science says materials don't make much difference. Mouthpiece makers and manufacturers continue to state how different materials give different sounds. I appreciate the opinion from experience but we've seen how science may not agree. As I don't know much about anything I like to do a bit of digging to try and make sense of things, in my own mind. It's good to see you are right. I like it when experience and science come together and agree with each other.

I was a bit surprised by the wax suggestion as wouldn't it do a similar thing to partial lacquer i.e. trap some moisture under the wax?
no, the wax promotes an even oxidation.
 

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I like it when experience and science come together and agree with each other.
I find science is usually in retrospect. Example a bridge falls down and people go gee why did that fall down, and then someone applies the sciences to it and saids this is the reason why it failed. Science is used to prove whats already happened. Past scientific encounters allow us to predict possible future scenarios. ( Im an avid suppoprter of science by the way )
 

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Science has had to look at what is already in the world in order get an understanding of it. Armed with that knowledge we can move on to better things and build better bridges - or longer lasting saxophones.
 

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- or longer lasting saxophones.
50+ years isn't enough???

We don't need to make the saxophone idiot proof, we just need to educate people to treat them appropriately.

I, for one, am weary of "built like a tank" being perceived as a favorable thing. How 'bout "built like a musical instrument"?
 

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Well, quite. My Selmer Modele 22 is doing OK. The worst area is on the bell whre the name is. Someone has over polished it wearing through the silver plate. If the advice for bar brass instruments is to regularly polish them then it's going to wear away a lot of metal. I'm not a fan of the 'patina' look though it seems better to leave it alone if it's bare brass. For me the lacquered finish looks good and lasts well. My Selmer MkVI has no visible corrosion. My King S20 is fine apart from the lacquer on the silver neck looking typically spotty. My 1970 Conn has been in the wars a bit and is a bit scratched but doesn't exhibit the pitting seen on some instruments. I was thinking of delacquering it, but really I don't think it's worth the effort. (How long do tanks last anyway???)
I feel the notion of original lacquer being a virtue is something we can see as a myth. Partial lacquer, which you get on a lot of old Selmers doesn't appear to be a good thing for the instrument. I think the choice of going bare brass or relacquering seems a good choice.
 

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Discussion Starter · #79 ·
yes indeed. Good nw lacquer (non spottled) opr delacquered.
The advise, just for clarifying, is NOT TO BUFF but clean and wax regulary. Wax is not abrassive.

Also the key si what you just mention, your horns have no "visible" pitting. You cannot evaluate the extent of pitting unless you remove all lacquer and inspect the surface.
 
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