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I have a MVI Bb bari in all perfect condition except for corrosion marks from the first owner (I'm #2) due to high acidic content in his persperation I would guess.
He can turn a silver flute black quickly and had to have and his MVI alto refinished as a result. Perhaps this is covered in earlier or other places on the site.
Any comments on individual player effect on the lacquer and brass after years of player other than normal dings, etc. from lots of playing.
 

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so wy not make stainless steel saxes
Formability, mass, cost, high flow stress necessitating different manufacturing methods...
 

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Discussion Starter · #44 ·
I have a MVI Bb bari in all perfect condition except for corrosion marks from the first owner (I'm #2) due to high acidic content in his persperation I would guess.
He can turn a silver flute black quickly and had to have and his MVI alto refinished as a result. Perhaps this is covered in earlier or other places on the site.
Any comments on individual player effect on the lacquer and brass after years of player other than normal dings, etc. from lots of playing.
My theory is that's caused by alkaline perspiration, but I have no formal data to backup my asumption.
 

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Yes, thanks. I really met to say alkaline (basic) causing the corrosion of the lacquer at specific points on the horn..
 

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Formability, mass, cost, high flow stress necessitating different manufacturing methods...
the density is about the same. the rockwell hardness is a little harder but generally 302 stainless elongates more before breaking than brass. tensile strengthe and yield are higher for 302. sounds pretty cllose to me. now cost i believe. it cant be more costly than sterling.

it seems reasonable to me to do it.

edit - brass and stainless about same cost per pound.

edit could overcome cold work issues with an intermediate aneal
 

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Discussion Starter · #47 ·
soldering, brazing and forming stainless steel requires way more training, tool expenses and experience than brass. And it pits worse than Brass for the application we're discussing. That's the thing with stainless if it corrodes, it pits really bad
 

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Having delacquered a horn that had an impressive variety of surface conditions, I noticed correlation between pitting and green corrosion beneath rotten lacquer. The pitting depth was not as severe as with jcaino's example. Red bloom areas, both bare and beneath lacquer, were smooth. I attribute the correlation between green corrosion (oxidation) and rotten lacquer to the lacquer trapping aqueous fluids against the surface of the brass and facilitating oxidation. Contaminants trapped in scratches and chips in lacquer could play a similar role. That seems to be what happened with jcaino's example. No lacquer = no trapping of aqueous fluids.

Tarnish is your friend. It is a copper/zinc sulfide layer that forms an oxygen barrier.
 

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I have a solid silver flute in for a service just now. The outside is blackened. The inside is not.
Corrosion is often associated with moisture but our instruments show little signs of corrosion internally, as has been pointed out.

I have a silver plated alto that was left in an outside shed. Moisture penetrated the plating and reacted underneath to form little 'blisters'. Moisture is a big cause of corrosion but why are the insides seemingly not affected?
It is said that the moisture inside is mainly condensed water and therefore fairly clean. It may wash away any surface contaminates from the air. Or is sunlight on the surface contributing to corrosion?
Some lacquered instruments appear to corrode more than others of the same age/ type. I've assumed it is to do with the saltiness of the air, moisture and content of suphur etc which contributes to corrosion. It's be handy to know what causes some to corrode more than others.
Relacquered instruments with thick lacquer tend to protect the metal well. Maybe modern lacquers are just too thin(?)
 

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selmer 26 nino, 22 curved sop, super alto, King Super 20 and Martin tenors, Stowasser tartogatos
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I know that airborne chemical pollutants can cause severe deterioration of many substances over time, just add water and presto! I'm not so knowledgeable on all the various pollutants, their reactivity, how they combine, but I'm sure the info is available.
 

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i still want a stainless steel sax. maybe passivated. if i recollect right, pitting of stainless is really only in salt environments.

I wonder about an aluminum sax that is anodized. they are great even in salt environs. form it all anealed then heat treat to get it good and hard. it will be lighter than brass ( about 1/3 the weight) and more corossion resistant. hard anodize can be done in colors too. its not as shiny though.
 

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Steel would make a very heavy sax. I think they tried making saxes out of different material in the past and brass wins for being the best for its ease fo use and cheapness.

If you read the stuff on brass it is also good hygenically, so I think brass is one of the best choices.
 

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Uebel made a very decent aluminum flute. Matit makes a pro-grade carbon fiber flute using magnets instead of springs. The feel is quite nice. The Guo Bros. grenaditte (basically plastic) flute has been getting a lot of rave reviews from professional players. Funny thing, though--I've never seen a brass flute...
 

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Uebel made a very decent aluminum flute. Matit makes a pro-grade carbon fiber flute using magnets instead of springs. The feel is quite nice. The Guo Bros. grenaditte (basically plastic) flute has been getting a lot of rave reviews from professional players. Funny thing, though--I've never seen a brass flute...
I've worked on a brass flute - a very old one...can't remember who the maker was though. I think it's the only one I've ever seen.

I've got one of the Uebels - it's not a bad flute. Good enough for jazz at least. I fitted it with a Yamaha lip plate, the original plastic one wasn't that great.

Regards,
 

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i still want a stainless steel sax. maybe passivated. if i recollect right, pitting of stainless is really only in salt environments.

I wonder about an aluminum sax that is anodized. they are great even in salt environs. form it all anealed then heat treat to get it good and hard. it will be lighter than brass ( about 1/3 the weight) and more corossion resistant. hard anodize can be done in colors too. its not as shiny though.
Thanks for the derail. How 'bout starting a thread on alternate materials?
 

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Discussion Starter · #58 ·
What do you mean? Flute should be only good for classical, but when it comes to jazz doesn't matter? :)

How's that for derail DrG?
He's still trying to figure out how come a flute, aluminum and stainless steel got into a brass pitting corrosion thread.
 

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Steel would make a very heavy sax. I think they tried making saxes out of different material in the past and brass wins for being the best for its ease fo use and cheapness.

If you read the stuff on brass it is also good hygenically, so I think brass is one of the best choices.
Oddly enough, a stainless steel sax would weigh slightly less than one made of brass. 7400 kg/cu. meter vs. 8400kg/cu. meter.

http://www.simetric.co.uk/si_metals.htm

As Juan noted, it's just a lot harder to form, braze, solder, melt, repair, etc....
 

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What do you mean? Flute should be only good for classical, but when it comes to jazz doesn't matter? :)

How's that for derail DrG?
Z, you should know my feelings on this by now...

Tenor - It's all that matters.
 
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