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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi guys.
I recently ordered 2 x Forza thumb hooks and due to the unavailability of stock (I'm in Australia), I had to order these from overseas without seeing/trying them first. One arrived yesterday and I was astounded to find that there's no way it will fit my Yanagisawa WO1 alto - not a chance at all - despite advice on the Kooiman website (at the time I ordered the Forzas) that the Forza should fit virtually any horn with a detachable thumb rest....and I did a LOT of research in advance. The reason it won't fit is because the alt F# key guard is incredibly close to the RH thumb hook and the mounting plate of the Forza simply isn't long enough. Also, the Forza can't be attached using the RH thumb hook screws/nuts on ANY of my horns (Yani S880 sop, Yani WO1 alto, Selmer Serie III tenor) because those screws/nuts don't have enough thread depth, not by a long shot. If I want to attach the Forza to those horns, I'll need to try and find suitable screws/nuts which could be a bit tricky. My understanding is that the Forza should be able to be attached with the horn's original thumb hook screws/nuts but this definitely isn't the case with any of my instruments, and it's not like my horns are anything special or unique.

Aside from being completely astonished by the lack of compatibility of the Forza and wanting to let others know of my issues, I'm curious to hear of other players who have encountered problems with fitting Forzas to their horn/s (especially Yanagisawa WO1 alto), and what your solutions have been. I'm in contact with Ton Kooiman but he's incredibly busy and I'm not interested in keeping VERY expensive items if I can't find quick and inexpensive solutions. I shouldn't NEED to find solutions at all - given the incredibly high cost of the Forza - but I'm in this situation whether I like it or not.

Please don't misinterpret this post as bashing the Forza - I'm not. I'm simply very surprised at the fitting issues I'm experiencing and would love to hear from others about your solutions. I want this thing to work!

Cheers
Gary
 

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I have 4 Forzas. They fit excellently on my MK VI baritone, MK VI Tenor and Series III soprano. They will not fit on my Series II baritone, MK VI Alto and MK VI soprano. The F# guard on these is too close to the top of the thumb rest. Its too bad because for me it is the most comportable thumb rest I have experienced. For the three that the Forza will not fit I have installed the Ishimori model II thumb rest which is, for me, a close second. I was particularly disappointed when I tried to install the Forza on the Series II baritone and it didn't fit.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
@Platner, did your Forzas require special screws/nuts or did the originals fit just fine?
 

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@Platner, did your Forzas require special screws/nuts or did the originals fit just fine?
The original screws on the instruments all fitted and installed perfectly with the Forza. The picture below is the MK VI baritone showing the original screw and teardrop spacer being used to secure the Forza.

9630
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Wow, interesting. Thanks so much for replying!
 

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Keilwerth saxes (S/A/T), Selmer clarinets (S/B), Altus Azumi flute
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I also got two of them to fit on my horns. I think having to order them from overseas is pretty much the norm (unless you're in Europe) since most dealers don't stock them anyway. I think I ordered mine from Thomann.

They fit perfectly on my Keilwerth SX90R tenor and SX90 soprano, though they didn't really work well for the soprano (it wasn't a fit issue, it's just that this design doesn't seem to work well for straight sopranos). So I ended up selling the extra one. They are expensive here in the US and in pretty high demand, so I got back about what I paid for it, minus shipping.

I discussed my experience and posted pictures in this thread, though the pictures disappeared with the site migration. I'll upload them to the current thread if I can still find them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Yeah, I found your thread and was disappointed the pics didn’t make it through the migration....I was quite curious to see the setup on your horn.

I’m quite surprised that I seem to be in the minority in terms of having install issues (from my research, not the small number of replies so far in this thread). I hadn’t actually seen ANY people posting online about install problems when I was researching...everything was about whether they actually liked the Forza ergonomics or not.
 

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Keilwerth saxes (S/A/T), Selmer clarinets (S/B), Altus Azumi flute
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Here's a picture of the Forza on my SX90R tenor:


9637


I don't currently have any pictures with the thumbrest in the "open" position (I could take and post one tomorrow), but here are pictures of the original thumbrest, the mounting plate, and the screw:

9634
9635


9636
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
@mmichel, thanks for posting those pics. It'd be great if you could post pics of the "open" position whenever you get the chance. How long do you estimate the thread to be on your mounting screw? The thread on my mounting screws is around 3mm but due to the ridge around the Forza's mounting slot, that's nowhere near enough. I estimate I'd need a screw with at least 5-6mm of thread just to reach inside the ridged mounting slot and then down into the screw hole....and that's quite a lot of thread. It seems to me that the raised ridge around the slot is superfluous and is what's causing my screw issue.
 

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Surely a competent woodwind technician could fabricate something almost as good for the cost a bottle of wine!!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Surely a competent woodwind technician could fabricate something almost as good for the cost a bottle of wine!!!
LOL. That’s what I’m beginning to think. I paid AU$225 for the thing and I’m still faffing about sourcing bits and pieces. It shouldn’t be this bloody hard.

On a related subject, I saw the thread here about the Lagan Wrist Saver for soprano and got in touch with Brennan Lagan about it. I suggested that his design for the Wrist Saver would actually make an amazing and extremely adjustable thumb hook replacement.
 

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Well, saxophones vary a lot. Manufacturers aren't concerned about making their instruments compatible with aftermarket accessories.

If the F# key guard is interfering, you'll need to remove it, move it (if there's room) or move the anchoring hardware for the thumbhook. If the OE threaded fastener isn't long enough, you'll need to source a different one, or counterbore something deeper. Personally I'm not a big fan of these screws with about three threads on, screwed into blind holes - in that position I'd rather see a stud and an acorn nut, but that may interfere with your thumb.
 

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Keilwerth saxes (S/A/T), Selmer clarinets (S/B), Altus Azumi flute
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@mmichel, thanks for posting those pics. It'd be great if you could post pics of the "open" position whenever you get the chance. How long do you estimate the thread to be on your mounting screw? The thread on my mounting screws is around 3mm but due to the ridge around the Forza's mounting slot, that's nowhere near enough. I estimate I'd need a screw with at least 5-6mm of thread just to reach inside the ridged mounting slot and then down into the screw hole....and that's quite a lot of thread. It seems to me that the raised ridge around the slot is superfluous and is what's causing my screw issue.
Here's the picture:

9645


I also made the following relevant measurements:
  • The screw head is 19mm in diameter and 4mm thick at its thickest point
  • The threaded part of the screw is 4mm long
  • The mounting plate on my horn is 17.3mm wide and ranges from 2.0mm (at the center) to 3.0mm (at the edges) in depth
  • In addition, the Keilwerth mounting plate has a raised female threaded part that protrudes from plate (as you can see in my previous post). That threaded part is 2.5mm deep.
FWIW, I think that the "raised ridge" is designed to accomodate these protrusions on various mounting plates (Selmer-style plates have a similar threaded protrusion, though it is male rather than female). Without the ridge, the screw could potentially bottom out on these plates before tightening sufficiently to hold the thumbrest in place.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
@mmichel, you are an absolutely godsend. Thank you so much!
 

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@mmichel, you are an absolutely godsend. Thank you so much!
You're welcome!

I'm just trying to be a good community member. This is the kind of information I would have liked to have had before making my purchase, and I've benefited greatly (on other topics) from information posted by other generous members of the SOTW community.

Just pay it forward!
 
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