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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi all,

I recently bought a King Super 20 baritone (406xxx), which is missing the original neck. The neck that came with horn is probably a (modified) Conn neck. I discussed it with the tech who will do the overhaul this coming week. It might be that this neck will cause intonation problems, or it might turn out that the tone will not be as it should be. I found a picture on saxpics.com: http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/king/super_20/5/bari/lacquer/439xxx/bari_1.jpg.
The placement of the octave pip on the neck that came with my bari appears to be different from that original neck. Apart from that, it is too long: I have to push the mouthpiece onto the neck way beyond the end of the cork to play in tune. The tube might even enter the chamber of the mouthpiece.

So perhaps I'll decide to order a Karsten Gloger neck.

I have a couple of questions:

1. Is the neck on the saxpic-picture indeed an orignal neck? It's a bit hard to tell, but I does not seem to be a silver neck. According to saxpics.com a silver neck was standard on a s20 bari.
2. Would you recommend a silver neck on this bari? My tech said it's not worth it and that I might as well order a the cheaper copper neck. What is your opinion?
3. Does anyone of you have experience with Karsten Gloger necks on this baritone? How does it play/sound as compared to the original neck?
4. Do you think the incorrect placement of the octave pip will have a huge effect on the sound or the intonation?
5. Does anyone of you have a better picture of an original neck?
 

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In response to your questions, in order:
1: The neck on my school's S20 Bari is lacquered, and is original, there is NO WAY a school would pay for a new neck on a sax, no money
2: I'd go with the copper, save some money
3: No experience
4: I think it would, if the pad doesnt seat where it should, it could cause undue wear on the mechanism, couldn't it? (purely a speculation) Also, it could not be closing "flat" on the pip, don't know how to describe it right
5: I can take one on tuesday for you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Ianhart, thanks for your answers and your offer to take a picture of your s20 neck.

So it seems that the original neck wasn't standard on the s20 bari.

About the octave pip: perhaps my description wasn't clear. It's not that the pad doesn't fit, but the location of the pip itserlf on the neck is different: on the original neck the pip is much closer to the body. I suppose that the location of the octave pip relative to the air column is an essential part of the design of the sax and I can imagine that moving it up or down could have effect the respone (making it more difficult to jump to the upper register) and the tone.
 

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I'm fairly certain that the necks on all King baris from the Voll-True to the S20, will interchange. I have two King Zephyr baris. One is an early 30s; the other an early 60s. There is a slight difference in the location and the shape of the pips. The neck on my late Zephyr appears to be the same as the one on the S20 on Saxpics' site. My early one is in the shop right now, so I can't say for certain what the difference in location is. As I recall, on the earlier horn the pivot posts and the pip were perhaps 1/4" (6-7mm) farther up the neck. Apparently the change was made to improve intonation. Perhaps your neck is from an earlier Zephyr. Regarding the silver neck, my understanding is that it was "optional".

BTW. What mouthpiece are you using? Have you peeled the cork to see if the neck you have was extended? Also, do you have a pic you can post? I'm sure someone here could ID it. :cool:
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks for the info, Xax.
Unfortunately I can't post a picture of the neck right now nor can I check if it is extended, because I brought the bari & neck to the tech. The tech thought it was a Conn neck. I don't think it's a Zephyr neck, because the lever was modified and resoldered to make it fit the octave mechanism on the body. Fortunately, the receiver seems to be original, according to the tech.
It's a bit hard to tell from a picture, but I would say that the location of the pip differs much more than 6-7 mm. Once I'll have it back, I will measure the distance and post it here.
The cheapish looking mouthpiece that came with the horn has no brand name on it. Although it was difficult (because of all the leaks), I could more or less play the whole range of notes. I also tried a Berg Larsen (metal), which I had to push even farther onto the neck, but it was almost unplayable. It could be that the tube was just too long and was entering the chamber of the mouthpiece.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Yesterday I got my bari back from the tech :) Wow, nice, impressive sound!

Intonation in the upper register is difficult, but up to to the high C# I can still play in tune by relaxing my embouchure. But the palm key notes are really, really sharp.

BTW, I use a metal Berg Larsen 110 / 3 / M, with Rico 2,5 and 3 reeds.

It's perhaps still a bit early to draw conclusions (since I'm new to the baritone), but I wonder if these intonation problems could be caused by the neck which is not original.

Here's a picture of the neck that came with the bari (as you can see the lever is modified: it is extended). It indeed looks like a Conn neck.
View attachment 1503
And I found another (close-up) picture of a (silver) original neck:
View attachment 1504
The location of the octave pip is rather different as you can see. According to the tech this location is not really critical, but there maybe other factors that effect the intonation.

Well, I guess I should first get used to this horn, try other mouthpieces, and then decide if it's necessary to look for another replacement neck.
 

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you need the king neck for this horn. the conn neck is causing the intonation problems. my super20 plays almost spot on over the entire range and is not sharp in the upper area. try gloger for a replacement neck
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Well, I've been playing on my bari for a couple of weeks now and I tried several mouthpieces, but that didn't make much difference. The upper register is way too sharp. So last week I contacted Karsten Gloger and he will make a new neck for my bari! I'm looking forward to it, but I'll have to be patient: it will take a couple of months before I'll have it...
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
He said it will take approx. 8 weeks.
I know (form other SOTW-threads) that people sometimes have to wait longer, but let's hope that will not be the case. I ordered it directly from him and we reside in the same country, so that will probably save some time...
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
It arrived!

Here it is!

Karsten Gloger made a silver neck for me and yesterday I received it. It took some time, but is was worth it!
I only played it for a couple of hours, but I already can say that it's definitely an improvement. The intonation is much better now. High D and up is still a bit hard to play in tune (still a bit sharp), but it's a lot better and I can correct it with my embouchure. Maybe I should try other mouthpieces and see if that further solves the problem.
And the sound is better as well: it is fatter and more stable, especially in the higher range.

And it looks nice!
 

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great! enjoy the loudest bari sax ever made! there is nothing else to compare
 

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Sjax20 said:
Here it is!

Karsten Gloger made a silver neck for me and yesterday I received it. It took some time, but is was worth it!
I only played it for a couple of hours, but I already can say that it's definitely an improvement. The intonation is much better now. High D and up is still a bit hard to play in tune (still a bit sharp), but it's a lot better and I can correct it with my embouchure. Maybe I should try other mouthpieces and see if that further solves the problem.
And the sound is better as well: it is fatter and more stable, especially in the higher range.

And it looks nice!
Nice! Did you try lowering those key heights. That helped the intonation on mine. Also, I'd recommend an older Link STM if you can find an affordable one. I'm playing a 4* and for me, it has more edge and more guts than the Berg i was using before (105/2 w/offset M). All that and it can still play "sweet"! :cool:
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Xax - thanks for the tips.
A couple of days ago went to a shop where they have quite a lot of (new) mouthpieces to choose from, and tried a lot of them. I was playing a Berg Larsen (110/3/SMS) of a friend of mine, and needed a mouthpiece of my own. I tried other Berg Larsen pieces, HR and metal. Intonation of the high D and up was a little bit better with the chamber 2 pieces, but I didn't like the sound (too edgy). I also tried Rousseau, Lebayle HR, Yanagisawa metal, Otto Link metal & HR, an old Dukoff and a metal Jody Jazz. I most liked the Link (metal 7*) and the Jody Jazz (8), and it was hard to choose. After hesitating for a while, I went for the Jody Jazz, which seemed to be more versatile and a bit more edgy. Without the spoiler it has a nice warm, full, complex sound. Reeds make a lot of difference. At this moment I prefer La Voz medium.
Today I visited my tech. He thought the intonation is not really that bad. He thought that lowering the key height would not be a solution, because it's already rather low, and lowering it further more would change the character of the sound too much. I think I just need to get used to it and adjust my embouchure.
Having the new neck and a new mouthpiece I'm now finally ready to really enjoy my bari! :)
 

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Nice! Did you try lowering those key heights. That helped the intonation on mine. Also, I'd recommend an older Link STM if you can find an affordable one. I'm playing a 4* and for me, it has more edge and more guts than the Berg i was using before (105/2 w/offset M). All that and it can still play "sweet"! :cool:
Exactly the same with my Super 20 bari: lots of intonation problems, after some waiting for the new silver neck made by Karsten Gloger I really can enjoy my bari. I'm playing an older Otto Link STM 7* and where I need to have a very focused tone I also use a - rare - STM 4*. - This is my solution to the problem!
 
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