[Saxo82]

Hi. After watching this fantastic performance I'm starting to think about looking around for a King saxello. I'm wondering if anyone has any direct experience with them; specifically, given how wonky intonation can be on sopranos of that era in general, I'm wondering how the intonation on them tends to be. Or is a particular era of saxello generally considered better than another? Just thinking about what to look for. Bennie Maupin makes that one sound amazing but, of course, he's Bennie Maupin.

Note: I am not asking about any other tipped-bell soprano than original King saxellos. If you have a LA Sax or P. Mauriat or Rampone & Cazzani or other kind of saxello that you love, that's great, I'm happy for you, but that's not what I'm asking about here. Thanks! Any help or advice greatly appreciated.

-Jon

 

[turf3]

Well, I can't tell you anything about the Saxellos specifically, but I am here to state categorically that most of the statements about "bad intonation of vintage sopranos" are 110% pure and utter hogwash. So I would question such statements about the King Saxello unless made by someone who gave it a real trial, using an appropriate mouthpiece positioned properly.

 

[Saxo82]

turf3, it's been my experience, having played literally dozens of pre-1940s horns, that intonation on pre-war horns is just different than that of modern horns. It was a different era, with different standards for saxophone performance, different manufacturing processes & standards, and different commercial incentives for instrument makers. And given the range of sopranos, intonation is naturally gonna be a more finicky on those horns than lower horns. I love vintage horns, play them almost exclusively, but I think it's rather obvious that older horns have quirkier intonation than post-1960s horns, calling such a statement "pure and utter hogwash" is extreme and, well, wrong.

 

[Graysax]

I can say being that I have literally overhauled (refurbished, repaded - whatever name you want to call it) probably now 1000's of saxophones, that Saxello's can be a different beast.

They can be a pure joy when set up right or a nightmare when not - more so than most any kind or size of saxophone. If you get it worked on, make sure that it goes to somebody with experience with them, or at least no ego that they might have to set it up differently than how they expect.

 

[Saxo82]

Super interesting, Graysax. Thanks for the reply. What in particular is tricky about them/what should a good tech watch out for when repairing it? And relatedly, I'm in Los Angeles; anyone out here you can recommend for saxello should I take the plunge?

 

[turf3]

turf3, it's been my experience, having played literally dozens of pre-1940s horns, that intonation on pre-war horns is just different than that of modern horns. It was a different era, with different standards for saxophone performance, different manufacturing processes & standards, and different commercial incentives for instrument makers. And given the range of sopranos, intonation is naturally gonna be a more finicky on those horns than lower horns. I love vintage horns, play them almost exclusively, but I think it's rather obvious that older horns have quirkier intonation than post-1960s horns, calling such a statement "pure and utter hogwash" is extreme and, well, wrong.

Yes, it's different, but what you just wrote is far different from the blanket statement "old sopranos have bad intonation" that I have seen written and heard stated. I object to blanket statements about how bad vintage horns are, because my own personal experience indicates that while there are some dogs, most are very good instruments, and old sopranos are covered by that too.

 

[Dave Dolson]

I owned a King Saxello (and played others) . . . the intonation on mine was difficult - so difficult that I traded mine to Gayle Fredenburgh (vintagesax) for a straight gold-plated Conn. I was an experienced soprano-as-first-horn player but I was unable to conquer that beast. It could have been me because I knew of other Saxello players who sounded great on theirs, but I still knew how to play a soprano in tune - and that one was not very good at playing in tune. Still, I would never offer a one-horn experience as being indicative of how all similar models play.

I agree with turf3 about the myths surrounding vintage sopranos and their intonation. True, there are some that gave me fits, but I've owned modern sopranos that also suffered from that malady. Right now, I have two 1920's sopranos that play great (a '27 Conn NWII and a '26 Martin Handcraft). I've owned several Buescher TT's and Conns over time. While not spot-on they were manageable.

Here's my take on the King Saxello - they are soprano saxophones and they tend to sound like a soprano saxophone, no more/no less. The player and his chosen mouthpiece/reed set-up will have more to do with how a Saxello sounds than the horn itself. DAVE

 

[Graysax]

Super interesting, Graysax. Thanks for the reply. What in particular is tricky about them/what should a good tech watch out for when repairing it? And relatedly, I'm in Los Angeles; anyone out here you can recommend for saxello should I take the plunge?

It's been awhile since I had one to completely rebuild, but if recollection is correct, pad heights were weird and the double hole for (I think it was for) low C is weird for getting things right too. Sorry I cant be of more help, just wanted to chime in that they are indeed different from most other vintage sopranos.

 

[1saxman]

Mixing up the terms 'tipped-bell' and 'saxello' is counter-productive. The modern 'tipped-bell' sopranos are actually copies of the Buescher Tipped-Bell soprano. I think they're the best answer for the casual soprano player. Its much easier to get a mellow sound out of them than a straight.
But to the question, the saxellos I have heard including King Curtis's Martin 'American' seem to be a little treacherous on intonation. Did they not have the full-curved soprano at that time? That would seem to take care of the prime reason for the saxello of being able to project forward without holding it straight out like a regular soprano.

 

[saxtek]

I agree with Graysax. It's important to have a King Saxello set up by someone who has overhauled LOTS of vintage sopranos. I have owned 2 Saxellos (still have one) and after extensive restoration work (remember, they're all about 90 years old) and careful selection of (thin) pads, I got both horns playing quite nicely. Don't expect a great overhaul to come cheap.
Sopranos are flexible enough that it is possible to put intonation of any note where you want it. Sometimes it's just a matter of living with the horn for a while.
Some mouthpieces will make everything easier, but mouthpieces are such a personal thing, I hesitate to suggest anything. I liked the original King mouthpiece, despite the small tip opening. I also overhauled a Saxello for jazz legend Ben Champion, who used a slant signature Otto Link mouthpiece, and his setup was terrific.

 

[turf3]

Mixing up the terms 'tipped-bell' and 'saxello' is counter-productive. The modern 'tipped-bell' sopranos are actually copies of the Buescher Tipped-Bell soprano. I think they're the best answer for the casual soprano player. Its much easier to get a mellow sound out of them than a straight.
But to the question, the saxellos I have heard including King Curtis's Martin 'American' seem to be a little treacherous on intonation. Did they not have the full-curved soprano at that time? That would seem to take care of the prime reason for the saxello of being able to project forward without holding it straight out like a regular soprano.

Well, I think different companies had different reasons for making sopranos in between the totally straight and the fully curved (like a little bitty alto shape). For the American companies I have really only seen Conn and Buescher curved sopranos and their stencils - there are also some "Yorks" floating around that might or might not be stencils from someone.

So as far as I know King, Martin, Selmer never made curved sopranos (if memory serves there might be a tiny number of Selmer curvies). It seems then that King made the true Saxello, maybe so they could have something that wasn't the straight, and without paying one of their direct competitors for a stencil curved. I think Martin may have stenciled some of those weird semi-curved Lyon/Healy/Couturier sopranos?

I don't recall ever reading about a Conn soprano other than the fully curved and the fully straight (and the stretch). As to Buescher's various tipped-bell and similar ones, I can only guess that either they were chasing the other semi-curved/saxello-form ones, or they were trying to eke out a bit more of the market. Someone who knows the chronology of development could probably provide useful insight.

If he sees it, I think Professor Cohen could answer and/or provide insight on these variant sopranos and their development; I recall more than one of his columns for Saxophone Journal dealt in considerable detail with them.

I have played considerably on straight sopranos (within the context of being mostlly a baritone specialist), a little bit on Yanagisawa fully curved ones, and not at all on any of the in between ones. A friend of mine who is a very fine soprano saxophonist loves his P Mauriat tipped bell soprano, and he swears it's not just a gimmick.

 

[Paul Cohen]

King, Martin, Selmer (Paris) and Evette Schaeffer all made fully curved sopranos. The Selmer Paris curved instruments were made from as early as the 1920s and extending up to the 1950s, and are quite uncommon (I have a few).
All the curved sopranos by these manufacturers are well made, but all have different playing characteristics which some may find daunting if not undesirable. I've found the Bueschers to be most practical for my playing,while the tone of all the curved sopranos are distinctive and quite wonderful.
Paul Cohen