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King S20 Baritone valuation

4K views 25 replies 10 participants last post by  mark_m 
#1 ·
Hello
I have the opportunity to purchase a King Super 20 Baritone Saxophone.
It has been relacquered in its past and has some repairs such as resoldered guards and a few posts.
Apart from that it’s pretty straight and I don’t see any signs of major repairs.
Unfortunately though it does not come with the original neck, however it has a Gloger replacement neck instead.
It’s in pretty decent play condition only perhaps requiring a minor service.
The seller is asking $2500 USD for it.
Would this be a reasonable price to pay for such a horn?
P.s. it plays and tunes fine with the Gloger neck.
Thanks.
 
#2 ·
What's the serial number?

Too high in my opinion.

If it we're original with the original neck and in good condition the $2500 is fair. Seems more like a $1500 horn in my opinion.

I have one on eBay right now, I bet goes for significantly less with the original neck.

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#7 ·
What's the serial number?

Too high in my opinion.

If it we're original with the original neck and in good condition the $2500 is fair. Seems more like a $1500 horn in my opinion.

I have one on eBay right now, I bet goes for significantly less with the original neck.

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Thanks for the reply.
Serial number is 405xxx so it's an Eastlake horn.
Seems I was wrong, it is not actually a relacquer after all.
Pads are a mix but it is sealing quite well.
I may be able to get a couple hundred off the price, but he seems pretty firm.
 
#4 ·
No original neck and re-lacquered?

The last one of these that was a Cleveland in playing condition with a silver neck sold on eBay for $2200.

It will depend on the serial number though. How old are the pads? How much play is in the key work and the list goes on and on.

These can be a scary investment if you don't know what you're getting into.

I know the gloger necks are nice, but you are still selling a vintage horn that was re-lacquered with past repairs and no original neck.

$2000 tops for me, but I'd still go $1500.

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#8 ·
I think $4000 is crazy high for one of these given how they play and how late they were made in the run. I work at Tenor Madness and we have sold them in the past for $2500 - $3000 in original condition playing well. Never gotten more than $3000 for one. I suppose if I had an early serial mint one I could get $4k probably, but that's about it. Where were you shopping to see that price? I'm curious. Thanks.

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#6 ·
The thing is....like Mark VI low Bb's....people make the assumption that an S20 BigHorn has a similar 'value ratio' to an Alto or Tenor (i.e. an Alto costs $XXX, a Tenor costs 1.3 x $XXX, so of course a Bari will cost 1.5 x $XXX). This isn't so. I understand why people who price them there might THINK this is so. But market reality is...not so.

$4000 original lacq with original neck. I doubt very greatly one would sell at that price. It may have been what the shop tagged it at, or what the owner thought it might be worth based upon values of a same-era Alto or Tenor....but the market doesn't work that way (for either VI's or 20's or Big B's, etc...)

One in excellent shape physical and playing shape w/original lacq silver neck could fetch around $3g tops (yes, LESS than a Tenor). If it needs some tech work and doesn't quite play cleanly up and down...maybe $2700ish tops.

A relacq should drop that price a good $400. A Gloger neck in replacement of the original neck, while NICE and laudable (because the owner did the closest thing one can possibly do to actually 'materializing' an original neck) would NOT bump the value back UP - but it also would not REDUCE the value IMHO; because the argument that 'ooooh - it's an unoriginal neck so it won't make the horn perform like the original' is BS, given it came from Gloger, a shop which has recorded the specifications of vintage necks and presumably uses these specs for their replacement ones.

So....relacq with Gloger...$2500 sounds a bit high. If seller priced it at $2500...offer 10% less; my guess is he/she would accept it. If you wanna push the issue, offer 15% less and see what happens. $2100-2200ish would NOT be an unfair price to pay. Not a steal, but not unfair.
 
#16 ·
I'm not really complaining about The Martins pinky table, I'd just like a baritone with the feel of my S20 Tenor in that department.
I can understand that, I have a Super 20 tenor also and love its action.
Haven't played a Super 20 baritone though, so don't know if or how they compare to the tenors.
 
#18 ·
Answer is the same as I noted above: "it's just the way it is". The Market oftentimes makes very little sense. It has nothing to do with the quality of the horn itself.

Thus if someone extrapolates a valuation of a Low Bb VI baritone based upon Tenor and Alto prices, they are gonna be wrong, because VI Low Bb's just don't follow that curve.

Likewise S20 Baritones....I mean, one could argue that given the dearth of S20 Baritones, they are fairly rare to stumble upon.... and therefore should fetch very, very competitive prices...right ?

Maybe it's just reflective or less folks being 'true' Baritone players (?) But it's probably just more reflective of the 'feeding frenzies' humans will participate in when an object is deemed by our society to be coveted and desirable...(note: the S20 is a great horn, not saying it isn't....)

Likewise I can state that the popularity of 12M's is somewhat baffling to me, having refurbed around 60 at this point - considering the actual piece of hardware itself. But it's probably because Mulligan played one, at the end of the day....and they do sound good. Not much more sophisticated an equation than that. While I like 12M's, I can name a good half-dozen vintage Bighorns which I consider superior to them in every way...but 65% of the time still cannot convince a 12M-seeker to consider other models. They want that 12M.

Just strange market impressions which have taken root.

Go figure...
 
#20 ·
Good info here. There's a local Cleveland bari with sterling neck in excellent original shape that I keep thinking about buying, but the seller is holding out for more than I want to spend.
It's the best example of a S20 bari I've come across - if anyone's looking for one like this, let me know.

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