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Discussion Starter #1
Hello
I have the opportunity to purchase a King Super 20 Baritone Saxophone.
It has been relacquered in its past and has some repairs such as resoldered guards and a few posts.
Apart from that it’s pretty straight and I don’t see any signs of major repairs.
Unfortunately though it does not come with the original neck, however it has a Gloger replacement neck instead.
It’s in pretty decent play condition only perhaps requiring a minor service.
The seller is asking $2500 USD for it.
Would this be a reasonable price to pay for such a horn?
P.s. it plays and tunes fine with the Gloger neck.
Thanks.
 

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What's the serial number?

Too high in my opinion.

If it we're original with the original neck and in good condition the $2500 is fair. Seems more like a $1500 horn in my opinion.

I have one on eBay right now, I bet goes for significantly less with the original neck.

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That price with the Gloger neck seems about right to me.
No original neck and re-lacquered?

The last one of these that was a Cleveland in playing condition with a silver neck sold on eBay for $2200.

It will depend on the serial number though. How old are the pads? How much play is in the key work and the list goes on and on.

These can be a scary investment if you don't know what you're getting into.

I know the gloger necks are nice, but you are still selling a vintage horn that was re-lacquered with past repairs and no original neck.

$2000 tops for me, but I'd still go $1500.


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I had these valued at just over $4,000.00 in original lacquer with the sterling neck when I looking for one last year. I guess I should monitor EBay trends more frequently than I do, $2500.00 seems like a bargain to me for an original S20 baritone.
 

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The thing is....like Mark VI low Bb's....people make the assumption that an S20 BigHorn has a similar 'value ratio' to an Alto or Tenor (i.e. an Alto costs $XXX, a Tenor costs 1.3 x $XXX, so of course a Bari will cost 1.5 x $XXX). This isn't so. I understand why people who price them there might THINK this is so. But market reality is...not so.

$4000 original lacq with original neck. I doubt very greatly one would sell at that price. It may have been what the shop tagged it at, or what the owner thought it might be worth based upon values of a same-era Alto or Tenor....but the market doesn't work that way (for either VI's or 20's or Big B's, etc...)

One in excellent shape physical and playing shape w/original lacq silver neck could fetch around $3g tops (yes, LESS than a Tenor). If it needs some tech work and doesn't quite play cleanly up and down...maybe $2700ish tops.

A relacq should drop that price a good $400. A Gloger neck in replacement of the original neck, while NICE and laudable (because the owner did the closest thing one can possibly do to actually 'materializing' an original neck) would NOT bump the value back UP - but it also would not REDUCE the value IMHO; because the argument that 'ooooh - it's an unoriginal neck so it won't make the horn perform like the original' is BS, given it came from Gloger, a shop which has recorded the specifications of vintage necks and presumably uses these specs for their replacement ones.

So....relacq with Gloger...$2500 sounds a bit high. If seller priced it at $2500...offer 10% less; my guess is he/she would accept it. If you wanna push the issue, offer 15% less and see what happens. $2100-2200ish would NOT be an unfair price to pay. Not a steal, but not unfair.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
What's the serial number?

Too high in my opinion.

If it we're original with the original neck and in good condition the $2500 is fair. Seems more like a $1500 horn in my opinion.

I have one on eBay right now, I bet goes for significantly less with the original neck.

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Thanks for the reply.
Serial number is 405xxx so it’s an Eastlake horn.
Seems I was wrong, it is not actually a relacquer after all.
Pads are a mix but it is sealing quite well.
I may be able to get a couple hundred off the price, but he seems pretty firm.
 

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I had these valued at just over $4,000.00 in original lacquer with the sterling neck when I looking for one last year. I guess I should monitor EBay trends more frequently than I do, $2500.00 seems like a bargain to me for an original S20 baritone.
I think $4000 is crazy high for one of these given how they play and how late they were made in the run. I work at Tenor Madness and we have sold them in the past for $2500 - $3000 in original condition playing well. Never gotten more than $3000 for one. I suppose if I had an early serial mint one I could get $4k probably, but that's about it. Where were you shopping to see that price? I'm curious. Thanks.

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Thanks for the reply.
Serial number is 405xxx so it’s an Eastlake horn.
Seems I was wrong, it is not actually a relacquer after all.
Pads are a mix but it is sealing quite well.
I may be able to get a couple hundred off the price, but he seems pretty firm.
Hmmm. If you like it then $2500 for an original one with a replacement neck is decent. I still would offer him $2000 and see what he says.

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Discussion Starter #10
Hmmm. If you like it then $2500 for an original one with a replacement neck is decent. I still would offer him $2000 and see what he says.

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Thanks once again.
I haven’t had the opportunity to play this one personally, but a friend whom I trust has.
I asked him about the feel of the keywork, his reply was “well it’s not a MKVI but it’s also not a Zephyr”.
While I kinda get where he’s going here, I am still unsure what exactly he means.
For reference I currently play a The Martin Comm III Baritone and have owned a MKVI Baritone also.
I loved the VI in most senses but hated the tilting table.
The Martin keywork suits my hands perfectly but the left pinky table could be better.
I’m looking for something in between the VI and the Martin.
My tenor is a Cleveland S20 series III double socket silver neck.
Hence my interest in the S20 Baritone, but are they at all similar in feel?
Thanks
 

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Thanks once again.
I haven’t had the opportunity to play this one personally, but a friend whom I trust has.
I asked him about the feel of the keywork, his reply was “well it’s not a MKVI but it’s also not a Zephyr”.
While I kinda get where he’s going here, I am still unsure what exactly he means.
For reference I currently play a The Martin Comm III Baritone and have owned a MKVI Baritone also.
I loved the VI in most senses but hated the tilting table.
The Martin keywork suits my hands perfectly but the left pinky table could be better.
I’m looking for something in between the VI and the Martin.
My tenor is a Cleveland S20 series III double socket silver neck.
Hence my interest in the S20 Baritone, but are they at all similar in feel?
Thanks
I'll play the one in the shop tomorrow, but I don't mind the feel of these at all. It will be in line like your Martin, not offset like the VI. Pinky table is better than the Martin. I think you'd get along with it fine.

I will play the one in the shop tomorrow to be sure and update this thread tomorrow.

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Discussion Starter #12
I'll play the one in the shop tomorrow, but I don't mind the feel of these at all. It will be in line like your Martin, not offset like the VI. Pinky table is better than the Martin. I think you'd get along with it fine.

I will play the one in the shop tomorrow to be sure and update this thread tomorrow.

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Thanks so much.
This will be really helpful.
 

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Just one comment, it is possible to get pretty good action out of the Martin table, if everything is right, as with the tenors. Mine was pretty rough but I convinced my tech to keep going at it making things align and slide better and lightening springs. Not saying it will change the fundamental design, but if it's dialed in it's pretty decent.
Thanks once again.
I haven’t had the opportunity to play this one personally, but a friend whom I trust has.
I asked him about the feel of the keywork, his reply was “well it’s not a MKVI but it’s also not a Zephyr”.
While I kinda get where he’s going here, I am still unsure what exactly he means.
For reference I currently play a The Martin Comm III Baritone and have owned a MKVI Baritone also.
I loved the VI in most senses but hated the tilting table.
The Martin keywork suits my hands perfectly but the left pinky table could be better.
I’m looking for something in between the VI and the Martin.
My tenor is a Cleveland S20 series III double socket silver neck.
Hence my interest in the S20 Baritone, but are they at all similar in feel?
Thanks
 

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Just one comment, it is possible to get pretty good action out of the Martin table, if everything is right, as with the tenors. Mine was pretty rough but I convinced my tech to keep going at it making things align and slide better and lightening springs. Not saying it will change the fundamental design, but if it's dialed in it's pretty decent.
I have a The Martin bari and agree that the table can be lightened some, but it's still hinged differently than more modern tables and takes getting used to.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I’m not really complaining about The Martins pinky table, I’d just like a baritone with the feel of my S20 Tenor in that department.
 

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I’m not really complaining about The Martins pinky table, I’d just like a baritone with the feel of my S20 Tenor in that department.
I can understand that, I have a Super 20 tenor also and love its action.
Haven't played a Super 20 baritone though, so don't know if or how they compare to the tenors.
 

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Interested in hearing more about the S20 bari's. Valuation is lower than tenors, of what is that reflective? Just the dominance of 12M's? If they stand up to the tenors in ergos and tone they'd be a potential bargain...
 

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Answer is the same as I noted above: "it's just the way it is". The Market oftentimes makes very little sense. It has nothing to do with the quality of the horn itself.

Thus if someone extrapolates a valuation of a Low Bb VI baritone based upon Tenor and Alto prices, they are gonna be wrong, because VI Low Bb's just don't follow that curve.

Likewise S20 Baritones....I mean, one could argue that given the dearth of S20 Baritones, they are fairly rare to stumble upon.... and therefore should fetch very, very competitive prices...right ?

Maybe it's just reflective or less folks being 'true' Baritone players (?) But it's probably just more reflective of the 'feeding frenzies' humans will participate in when an object is deemed by our society to be coveted and desirable...(note: the S20 is a great horn, not saying it isn't....)

Likewise I can state that the popularity of 12M's is somewhat baffling to me, having refurbed around 60 at this point - considering the actual piece of hardware itself. But it's probably because Mulligan played one, at the end of the day....and they do sound good. Not much more sophisticated an equation than that. While I like 12M's, I can name a good half-dozen vintage Bighorns which I consider superior to them in every way...but 65% of the time still cannot convince a 12M-seeker to consider other models. They want that 12M.

Just strange market impressions which have taken root.

Go figure...
 

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Thanks for the reply.
Serial number is 405xxx so it’s an Eastlake horn.
Seems I was wrong, it is not actually a relacquer after all.
Pads are a mix but it is sealing quite well.
I may be able to get a couple hundred off the price, but he seems pretty firm.
Original lacquer with a Gloger replacement neck....If you like it when you play it and it speaks up and down nicely, try offering $2300. $2500 isn't a terrible price at end of day.

DO, however, take a very CLOSE look at some things which are of particular significance on a used BigHorn:

1) check the bellbrace both ends to see if there is any impaction either into the bell or the body tube.

2) look closely at the upper crook/bow...check for significant dents in the elbows, and also if there is any 'twist' to the elbow piece which runs from the neck receiver on down. Look also for any bends in the upper bow bracing.

3) look carefully at the in-plumb-ness of the body tube. See if it curves either forward, towards the bell; or view it from the rear and see if it is bending to the left or right.

4) check the bell key pads, see if they are more or less 'centered' on the holes from front to back, or whether the pads/keycups seat significantly off-center (i.e. there is way more pad edge exposed at the 'front' of the pad than at the rear).

5) check the octave mechanisms function carefully - make sure the octave keys open and close in conjunction with each other when going from, say, G2 to A2 and back.

These are things which many buyers fail to examine... and if there are any significant maladies in these areas, the new owner will really get stuck with some significant repair bills after purchase. So all these elements in a $2500 horn should be clean, absent, or have been taken care of.
 

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Good info here. There's a local Cleveland bari with sterling neck in excellent original shape that I keep thinking about buying, but the seller is holding out for more than I want to spend.
It's the best example of a S20 bari I've come across - if anyone's looking for one like this, let me know.

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