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Seeker Of A Clever Title.
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Does anyone know anything about these? Would $325 be a good price (at a pawn shop). It's open hole and c foot, but I forgot the serial.
 

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I have a very nice King Cleveland I bought from a fellow SOTH poster for $450, but it is gold plating over solid silver. I just bought a more conventional King from Charl Van Schoik at Home Music Remasters (on the web) for $209, so $325 may be a bit steep, depending in part on condition. I think they were all stencils--American made (and not made anymore) and are just basic student quality flutes. Most of the web prices I have seen are a bit cheaper than $325.
 

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$350 sounds a bit high on that one. They were made by Artley but are better. If it is a 610, it has no silver in it. A 1000 series maybe would be worth that but you are getting into Yamaha/Emerson prices.
 

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Hi guys.

I could not find much info about it around.
Apparently this is the only specific thread about this flute brand.

I got a King Cleveland (the solid silver one) in unplayable condition.
It was certainly replated (seems to me it was first gold plated and then silver plated).

I sent it to a complete overhaul that finished today.
The repairman said its middle and high notes are beautiful, but lower notes are very quiet - in comparison with Yamaha flutes.
According to him, even though the low notes were playing easy and properly (without any leaks) they still sound with much less “power” than other flute brands, and this lack of loudness should be a result of the flute construction and scale.

I know players used to say that silver instruments have a darker tone than brass ones.
Also, I’ve heard Yamaha flutes have one of the most powerful low tones
(perhaps that was an unfair comparison of an old instrument with a modern, hi-tech one).

For those who have some experience with King Clevelands, do you think this issue is normal or should we look for an obscure problem?

PS: the flute is on the way.
 

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Sounds like a leak if the low end is weak. I could be the head but if it is a later one after the 60s, they had a big low end. There were several variants. Old Kings had soldered tone holes and were made by King. The second models in the 60s-mid 70s were made with King tooling by Artley (model numbers like 610, 1030) and final ones were made by DeFord in the 80s. I suspect a pad issue or if it is an early one, tone hole leak.
 

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Talk to Bruce Baily about headjoints.
Low note volume can be the head design.
Hey Adam.

Maybe.
The guy tried the original headjoint (which had its embouchure hole monstrously modified)
Thus, the modified blow hole would explain any intonation problem in the flute.
However, he also tried a Yamaha head on it and the same thing happened.


Sounds like a leak if the low end is weak. I could be the head but if it is a later one after the 60s, they had a big low end. There were several variants. Old Kings had soldered tone holes and were made by King. The second models in the 60s-mid 70s were made with King tooling by Artley (model numbers like 610, 1030) and final ones were made by DeFord in the 80s. I suspect a pad issue or if it is an early one, tone hole leak.
Hi Bruce.

The guy said there is no leak anywhere, neither the pads nor the tone holes.
As far as I remember, the toneholes are drawn and rolled.

Since I sent the flute quickly to the repairman, it had been very little time with me.
Some details I could not get and other I forgot to tell, like:

* It is french model (open-hole keys);
* Someone opened up the embouchure hole and overcutted it (overcutting a large hole seems an improper modification, isn't?)

Aparently it will arrive in this weekend.
I will double check for any gaps, even on the body and tone holes.
 

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If it has soldered tone holes you may have cracked solder joints and leaks where the chimneys are joined to the body,
 

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If it has soldered tone holes you may have cracked solder joints and leaks where the chimneys are joined to the body,
Hi Toby.
Sorry for the delay.
Tone holes are drawn and rolled. (and I'm relieved for this)

After some weeks I realized that the body end was slightly bent, since around E tonehole to the tenon (very hard to notice).
Also, I found a somehow "hide loose fitting" for the footjoint.
Actually the fitting was tight, but after completely fitted, if I hold the flute barrel with LH, the foot with RH and spin up/down both hands simultaneously, I could hear a "clack clack" sound.
Just sent the flute to the repairman, again.


(...) The second models in the 60s-mid 70s were made with King tooling by Artley (model numbers like 610, 1030) and final ones were made by DeFord in the 80s. (...)
Bruce,
I could not find "610" or "1030" engraved on it.
Is there another way to find out its model?
 

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I probably will need a photo to tell. Those old heads were very large to start with so any attempt to "enhance" it probably destroyed the sound.
 

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You have to be careful about leaks at the foot joint tenon socket. If the tenon is slightly out of round this can leak even if the joint fits tightly, and will rob a lot of power from D down to the end.
 

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I probably will need a photo to tell. Those old heads were very large to start with so any attempt to "enhance" it probably destroyed the sound.
Indeed!
The original (modified) head is quite hard to master.
I tried a Yamaha head and some cheap chineses.
They play better from middle to high notes, but I couldn't find any improve in the weak low notes.

Ok.
I will take some pics. when it arrives here.

Regards
 

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You have to be careful about leaks at the foot joint tenon socket. If the tenon is slightly out of round this can leak even if the joint fits tightly, and will rob a lot of power from D down to the end.
Yes.
This would totally explain the problems I noticed.
Actually I noticed it loses power even from low E (just a bit) and low D# (a bit greater loss than low E).

Let's wait.

Regards
 

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$350 sounds a bit high on that one. They were made by Artley but are better. If it is a 610, it has no silver in it. A 1000 series maybe would be worth that but you are getting into Yamaha/Emerson prices.
Actually a 610 king Cleveland is solid silver. How do I know? Because of your stupid comment that claims "if it is a 610, it has no silver in it" I JUST took mine in and had it tested at the pawn shop. They said its solid silver and worth about $900. Thanks.
 

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Bruce is very knowledgeable about flutes. Pretty crappy thing to say about someone on your first post.
 

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Actually a 610 king Cleveland is solid silver. How do I know? Because of your stupid comment that claims "if it is a 610, it has no silver in it" I JUST took mine in and had it tested at the pawn shop. They said its solid silver and worth about $900. Thanks.
Take $800 for it and run for the door.
 

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Actually a 610 king Cleveland is solid silver. How do I know? Because of your stupid comment that claims "if it is a 610, it has no silver in it" I JUST took mine in and had it tested at the pawn shop. They said its solid silver and worth about $900. Thanks.
The 610 is silver plated and not solid silver. The 1030 and some other models were silver heads, or silver bodies but not the 610. You are a very lucky kid to find the experts at the pawn shop who think it is a $900 flute so you should scour ebay as there are many there, pay about $50-100 for them and offer them to the pawn shop for $450 so they can double their money. They probably did the rub test and assumed that it was sterling. If any parts were silver it would be marked on the tubing. Where the pawn shop may be correct is if the head was changed, it could be silver and they didn't test the body.

No offense taken. In 50 years in the flute business, I have heard a lot of claims....
I was a buyer for one of the largest King dealers in the early 70s and we retailed the 610 for about $160 new.

Don't let the facts get in the way of your education.
 

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Telling Bruce Bailey that he makes a “ stupid comment" over a flute made in the US is not only preposterous but ridiculous!

Bruce has worked long enough in this industry to have a seriously good reputation and you come here and diss him! That really takes some guts!



I don’t know how the people at the pawn shop have assayed this flute but when you scratch a silverplate object on a touchstone you have to be sure that you scratch deep enough to go past the plate.

As Dr.G says, take the money and run.

There is no chance that this flute is actually worth that kind of money!
 

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You have to be careful about leaks at the foot joint tenon socket. If the tenon is slightly out of round this can leak even if the joint fits tightly, and will rob a lot of power from D down to the end.
Likewise for the head. Very common on new student Pearl flutes.
 

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If the embouchure hole has been modified, then unless you can establish by expert playing or know that the person who did it is one of the few in the world who really knows what they are doing,
then it is very likely to be stuffed. The most likely symptom would be weak souknd in part of the range.

Actually I noticed it loses power even from low E (just a bit) and low D# (a bit greater loss than low E)...
A sure sign of one of the following:
1. The player's embouchure &/or breath control are not up to scratch.
2. The head is significantly substandard.
3. In spite of what you have been told, there are leaks.

To test for silver tubing on the head: hold it at the crown end and flick the open end with your finger. If it rings, it is not silver. If it makes a dull "thuck", it is.

To test whether the body is silver: Heat the lower tenon over a flame. If the heat travels quickly and evenly up the flute several cm, (detected with finger/thumb) it is silver. If the heat remains closer to the end and more "hotly", it is not. This is most obvious if you compare a silver with a non-silver flute.
If the tenon changes colour, or parts come unsoldered, then you have heated it too hot!
 
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