[raindog]

Hello, would anyone more knowledgeable be able to identify this king bari?

Asking because I tried this one some months ago and the sound still haunts me. The horn was quite ugly, obviously a low end model, and monies were quite low, but it might have been a mistake to not buy it at the spot. I have been able to try some six vintage bari's all on the cheaper side, and this one just had such a great tone and was a joy to play in comparison.

I have no other information, so any info on the approximate era, model etc would be appreciated. I don't think this one even got a serial engraved. What I really want to know is, what models and eras of King saxes have a similar body tube, so I can narrow my preferences when looking for a new bari on the markets. I have seen some cheapish Zephyrs on sale which have been very appealing, are they basically the same sax on a prettier package?

 

[milandro]

It looks like a Modern Zephyr , judging by the engraving ( and the fact that says USA and not Cleveland or Eastlake) this may be a rather high serial number , which will probably indicate a production date post 1980.

Let’s say that as far as baritones go doesn’t look too bad. Probably contemporary to the 613 and 615 horns I would say that the fact that it looks like a late Zephyr makes it more desirable than those alto and tenors . Mechanics were certainly antiquated (by then) but many play earlier Zephyrs which weren’t all that different. My educated guess is that this was (is) a good buy and I would certainly consider or reconsider it if I were you

 

[raindog]

Thank you milandro, that is interesting, assumed it would be older! Tried it only briefly, but my fingers had no trouble navigating the keywork, not really worse than my Grassi tenor or even my "modern" low A Jupiter. You guess right I might have a possibility to reconsider, but not without serious budgetary and logistics challenges, and I do get by with the Jupiter for the time being...

 

[milandro]

If you have a Jupiter Baritone, they are very good. These Zephyrs are nice and powerful but in my opinion there are other horns equally valid. For example Keilwerths or their stencils.

I have had several of those and they were really good. I have only tried one of these Zephyrs (with Zephyr on it) and it was good but, Probably I’d prefer a Keilwerth if it was my money.

 

[Taragot]

This King Zephyr Bari really looks good, even the case! I don't find it especially ugly and it's also not a low end sax for what I know. If you could manage to come by with the pinkie table and the price was right ....
But if you have a Jupiter, you propably won't need another bari.

 

[turf3]

Late model King Zephyr. No fork Eb (boo!) but it has the front F (yay!) Should be a fantastic horn if in good condition and you don't need a low A. Tonally it will be the equal or superior to anything made today, with a huge "creamy" sound that will project over any full size big band with the greatest of ease and yet play pppp on low Bb effortlessly. Personally I think the left hand key design is far superior to the Selmer style with its tilting low Bb key.

 

[JayeLID]

Let's look at this from a practical point of view.

Yes, there ARE 'better' vintage Low Bbs than a late-model Zeph...BUT...these DO tend to be quite a bargain (cheaper than a 12M, for example) and quite honestly, for a vintage Bighorn they do a lot of things better than a 12M, Buescher, Martin, or European stencil of some sort....

I agree with MIlandro, your Jupe is a GOOD horn. But it will never sound like a nice old vintage American Low Bb baritone. You probably discovered that yourself.

These are funny, because indeed...King was the ONLY mfr. to stick with splitbell key design into the 70's LOL. So they do look old-school when they may not be. I WISH a modern maker would roll a splitbell model off the assembly line today, I think that'd be an excellent marketing decision actually....

So, providing it's under $1100 and plays well and it doesn't have any nasty dents anywhere...that is the best anyone can ever ask for when shopping for a Low Bb really. I doubt greatly the thing will have disappeared within a few days (unless the seller was asking $600)....these Zephs, like Holton baritones... are really respectable horns but have almost no reputation when compared to a 12M or Martin Comm 3 or stuff like that. I used to refurb 'em 10 years ago and their owners were really happy, but now they are just off most buyers' radar from the get-go; so from a reseller's perspective not worth fixing one up. But they are still good horns.

 

[raindog]

Thanks all for the input! Kinda surprised to hear it's a Zephyr since it looks so different to the earlier Zephyrs which seem to have much more attention to detail, at least in engravings, and shade of the lacquer is different. In addition to the lack of engravings, this one looked kind of crudely made, as opposed to the beautiful metalwork of say, some Martin and Beaugnier specimens I have seen - this was more like Amati by appearance and looks of the keywork. By ugliness I didn't mean the condition of the instrument, rather the design. (man, I wanted to like the Beaugnier, that was a thing of dark silvery beauty, and details that just invite closer inspection, but it just didn't sound good and was incredibly heavy.)

Of course sound and playability is what matters most and this horn definitely delivered, but as an aesthetic I do enjoy a lovingly crafted instrument, while not being the biggest fan of shiny gold lacquer in big horns. This King though; even my SO who isn't a sax person or even a musician, noted how good it sounded to her ears. "Creamy" and powerful at the same time indeed.

 

[JayeLID]

Yup, they also as a rule lack the intonation issues and mouthpiece-matching challenges which are common with 12M's, for example. The Zeph became the second line Bighorn when King introduced the S20 baritone, so the aesthetic flourishes of earlier Zephs sorta began to vanish at that point. Certainly by the 70's they looked pretty spare (aesthetically speaking).


....oops I just saw you are in Finland. So my market prices noted are probably a bit wrong, as I understand vintage American horns have higher values in Europe.

 

[turf3]

Martins and Beaugniers are beautifully made from the mechanical standpoint. Conns and Kings can be a bit more "string-and-sealing-wax" but they still work outstandingly. Remember too that this was being sold as a student horn so aesthetic refinements would have been gradually dropped as tooling wore out or new parts designed or cost reduction projects implemented.

 

[Taragot]

Yup, they also as a rule lack the intonation issues

I have a zephyr bari here, which a friend of mine gave to me. The intonation is really not bad, only the palm keys were really off. So I attached some halfmoon corks in the chimneys and reduced the key heights with some felt - easy fix.

Personally I think the left hand key design is far superior to the Selmer style with its tilting low Bb key.

I'm with you - only c# is a bit nasty if you ask me.

 

[xax]

Yep definitely would guess it's a late Eastlake model of the great King Zephyr bari. I occasionally see Zephyr baris disparaged on SOTW and it seems to me that usually those opinions are based on a casual "relationship"...not much time in the saddle so to say. I've been playing Zephyr baris for maybe 10-15 years now (Art Deco for the past 7-8) and the horns that I'd sooner own are few indeed.

In my experience Zephyr baris are an incredibly easy blow...maybe that trait makes them undesirable to some.
The very old ones like from the 30s-50s? did not have the front F and I think no Zephyrs had an articulated G# (until the S20 bari) but you get used to it if you play the horn. The left pinky table is old style...on the Art Deco model it's really funky but again, you play the horn you get used to it. In my experience, with Zephyr baris the newer the vintage of the horn, the better the action...but conversely, the less "complex" the tone. Additionally, the sometimes lower quality craftmanship of the very late KINGs can work against their "improved" design.

So for making peace with those foibles what you get (I think) is one the two or three best solo big horns out there: Conn 12m, King Zephyr, Selmer MK. YMMV.

 

[milandro]

they were made in Eastlake but by this time they lost the “ Eastlake-Ohio” engraving and just bore USA

My guess is that this would be SN post 600,000

If palm keys are too sharp it is easy to reduce the height

 

[B Flat]

Yep definitely would guess it's a late Eastlake model of the great King Zephyr bari. I occasionally see Zephyr baris disparaged on SOTW and it seems to me that usually those opinions are based on a casual "relationship"...not much time in the saddle so to say. I've been playing Zephyr baris for maybe 10-15 years now (Art Deco for the past 7-8) and the horns that I'd sooner own are few indeed.

In my experience Zephyr baris are an incredibly easy blow...maybe that trait makes them undesirable to some.
The very old ones like from the 30s-50s? did not have the front F and I think no Zephyrs had an articulated G# (until the S20 bari) but you get used to it if you play the horn. The left pinky table is old style...on the Art Deco model it's really funky but again, you play the horn you get used to it. In my experience, with Zephyr baris the newer the vintage of the horn, the better the action...but conversely, the less "complex" the tone. Additionally, the sometimes lower quality craftmanship of the very late KINGs can work against their "improved" design.

So for making peace with those foibles what you get (I think) is one the two or three best solo big horns out there: Conn 12m, King Zephyr, Selmer MK. YMMV.

I'd agree with most of this apart from the list of the three best solo big horns.
Conn, King, Martin.
Id even put Yanagisawa and Yamaha well before Selmer.
Although I did play a very nice Selmer Super Series Baritone once.

 

[turf3]

... and I think no Zephyrs had an articulated G# (until the S20 bari) but you get used to it if you play the horn. .

It's dead easy to add the G# linkage to a horn that doesn't have it. You just solder a plate under the G# key and put some cork (or Teflon) to adjust the linkage.

Also, the Zephyr C# appears to be a two piece like the Conn 12M which greatly reduces key force compared to the one piece low C# (as, for example, Conn tenors have). So even with the linkage added it shouldn't be unworkable.

 

[turf3]

... and I think no Zephyrs had an articulated G# (until the S20 bari) but you get used to it if you play the horn. .

It's dead easy to add the G# linkage to a horn that doesn't have it. You just solder a plate under the G# key and put some cork (or Teflon) to adjust the linkage.

Also, the Zephyr C# appears to be a two piece like the Conn 12M which greatly reduces key force compared to the one piece low C# (as, for example, Conn tenors have). So even with the linkage added it shouldn't be unworkable.

 

[turf3]

I'd agree with most of this apart from the list of the three best solo big horns.
Conn, King, Martin.
Id even put Yanagisawa and Yamaha well before Selmer.
Although I did play a very nice Selmer Super Series Baritone once.

Selmer Supers (I've tried out both tenor and baritone) are much more like Conns tonally than the later models. I think the Super is very underrated. It's the only Selmer model I'd pay to own.

 

[turf3]

I'd agree with most of this apart from the list of the three best solo big horns.
Conn, King, Martin.
Id even put Yanagisawa and Yamaha well before Selmer.
Although I did play a very nice Selmer Super Series Baritone once.

Selmer Supers (I've tried out both tenor and baritone) are much more like Conns tonally than the later models. I think the Super is very underrated. It's the only Selmer model I'd pay to own.

 

[B Flat]

Selmer Supers (I've tried out both tenor and baritone) are much more like Conns tonally than the later models. I think the Super is very underrated. It's the only Selmer model I'd pay to own.

Actually it's the only Selmer model I own.
But mine is a Tenor.
The Baritone I tried was not for sale unfortunately.

 

[raindog]

Interesting information thank you all! I'm not unhappy with my Jupiter at the moment, so I'm gonna stick with it until I have better budget to buy something truly nice, whether it's King, Martin or something else, to play for a lifetime. Would be nice to be able to try a Conn some day.

I guess this would have been a good buy in the < 2K€ kategory and my best bet if I didn't already have the Jupe. Thing is, here in Finland, you'll be lucky to find ANY baritone for 2K or even close to that. (this horn was and might still be in a reputable shop in germany, in good playing shape).