[CandyHearts]

From reading some other threads I am getting the idea that the new line of Taiwan-made Phil Barone saxophones are considered "pro" and are even being compared with the top-of-the-line Selmers, Yamahas, Yanis, and Keilworths.

And from things I have read here in the past few weeks, the Taiwan-made Kessler Custom saxophones are considered high-end intermediate level. (Better than "student" models, but not even close to Selmer-Paris and the other "big 4" manufacturers.)

Now, my question is this: The Phil Barones are being touted on this site as being "every bit as good" as the Selmer Ref 54 .... and the Kessler's are admittedly nice but inferior to the "best of the best."

I have seen a Phil Barone for sale on ebay and this is a quote from the item description:

Are all Taiwanese saxophones created equal? Yes, with some minor exceptions. In some cases you may have two families making, let's say, a key guard resulting in cosmetic variation. Or, since they are assembled by different people there may be some differences in key height and other variables as a result of the assembly process. Sometimes a company buying the saxophones has a lot of buying power so thay have more leverage in having the manufacturer make dchanges. But, provided the people assembling them are qualified, the saxophones are identical.

To me this seems rather confusing .... are both these brands made in Taiwan or not? Are they "created equal" or not? The price of Phil Barone is certainly comparable to Kessler Custom ... but is the quality similar or do the Phil Barone saxes actually outshine the Kessler like the following thread seems to imply? >>
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=70557

Any input would be greatly appreciated! (if the Barone truly is a better "bang for the buck" I would be quite interested in bidding on this alto sax!)

 

[Dave Dolson]

CandyHearts: Please see my PM to you. DAVE

 

[CandyHearts]

Dave .... I tried to open the PM, but I got an error message and it would not open.

 

[Dave Dolson]

I'll try to re-send. DAVE

 

[CandyHearts]

Dave .... I did open your message and replied to it by PM ... THANK YOU!!

 

[Canadiain]

Just as all French saxes are not equal, or all German saxes are not equal, or all Japanese (or even all Yamaha) saxes are not equal, why would all Taiwanese ones be equal?

 

[CandyHearts]

Makes sense, Canadian! Oops, Canadiain.

 

[Phil Barone]

Just as all French saxes are not equal, or all German saxes are not equal, or all Japanese (or even all Yamaha) saxes are not equal, why would all Taiwanese ones be equal?

They're all equal in the sense that the parts are the same but I think what comes into play is how much the buyer watches over the people making them. I've made it clear to both of my suppliers that I have other resources and I'm constantly breathing down their backs. I also started going over every horn. Will I be able to do that if I start selling a lot? I hope so but I really don't know.

Phil

 

[CandyHearts]

Thanks for all the replies!

 

[Phil Barone]

They're all equal in the sense that the parts are the same but I think what comes into play is how much the buyer watches over the people making them. I've made it clear to both of my suppliers that I have other resources and I'm constantly breathing down their backs. I also started going over every horn. Will I be able to do that if I start selling a lot? I hope so but I really don't know.

Phil

I want to add something else. China has grown tremendously with regard to manufacturing but show no interest in doing it in an environmental conscious way. I'm on a few manufacturing magazine list and when it comes to polluting the world they are easily number one. Also, their human rights stinks and what they did and continue to do to Tibet severely goes against my grain. No, it will be a long time before my business buys from them. Phil

 

[Wade Cornell]

Have just purchased one of Phil's sop saxes. Can say that it sounds and looks pretty good. Also have two Yani and a B&S. The Yani fits my hands better, but the sound is surprising just as good out of Phil's sop. Very good intonation. Well worth the bucks.

Thanks Phil.

 

[Rackety Sax]

Just as all French saxes are not equal, or all German saxes are not equal, or all Japanese (or even all Yamaha) saxes are not equal, why would all Taiwanese ones be equal?

Unless there is only one saxophone manufacturer in Taiwan, which I tend to doubt.

 

[Rackety Sax]

I want to add something else. China has grown tremendously with regard to manufacturing but show no interest in doing it in an environmental conscious way. I'm on a few manufacturing magazine list and when it comes to polluting the world they are easily number one. Also, their human rights stinks and what they did and continue to do to Tibet severely goes against my grain. No, it will be a long time before my business buys from them. Phil

Phil, there are no doubt many dimensions to "polluting the world" - too many to make a blanket statement like that. For instance, check out this chart of per capita carbon emissions. In 2004, the latest year shown, the U.S. was 10th highest with 20.4 metric tons, China was 91st with 3.84 metric tons per capita. China's total population is about 4 or 5 times the U.S., so if you look at it on a total basis it would be roughly even. No doubt China's output is increasing faster than the U.S. so maybe it's different now.

Not to defend China's horrible environmental record, though - it's really heartrending to think that China could have chosen to serve as an example of environmentally responsible development but did not, much to the long-term detriment of its own population and the whole world's.

 

[Phil Barone]

Phil, there are no doubt many dimensions to "polluting the world" - too many to make a blanket statement like that. For instance, check out this chart of per capita carbon emissions. In 2004, the latest year shown, the U.S. was 10th highest with 20.4 metric tons, China was 91st with 3.84 metric tons per capita. China's total population is about 4 or 5 times the U.S., so if you look at it on a total basis it would be roughly even. No doubt China's output is increasing faster than the U.S. so maybe it's different now.

Not to defend China's horrible environmental record, though - it's really heartrending to think that China could have chosen to serve as an example of environmentally responsible development but did not, much to the long-term detriment of its own population and the whole world's.

I get my info from the manufacturers magazines I get but it's hard to believe that the spread is that large. Anyway, I have other issues with them like the human rights stuff. Phil

 

[LampLight]

Phil, there are no doubt many dimensions to "polluting the world" - too many to make a blanket statement like that. For instance, check out this chart of per capita carbon emissions. In 2004, the latest year shown, the U.S. was 10th highest with 20.4 metric tons, China was 91st with 3.84 metric tons per capita. China's total population is about 4 or 5 times the U.S., so if you look at it on a total basis it would be roughly even. No doubt China's output is increasing faster than the U.S. so maybe it's different now. . .

I think it is different now, at least if oil consumption is any guide. Download the Excel file at the end of this link for All Countries, Total OECD, and World Total, Most Recent Annual Estimates, 1980-2006. Between 2004 and 2006, US oil consumption actually declined a smidge, whereas China's rose by almost a million barrels per day (and Europe's consumption rose very slightly). I don't have coal consumption in front of me, but China is a world leader in the consumption of dirty coal. All this is driven by China's burgeoning manufacturing economy, versus the US's increasingly out-sourced economy.

 

[Rackety Sax]

That's on the order of a 10-15% increase. Don't mean to split hairs here. In terms of greenhouse gases, I think it is fair to say that no government is responding with anywhere near the degree of urgency that the looming crisis warrants, and that the U.S. and China are near the top of the list of non-responders. I dread the day when my daughter looks me in the eye and asks how our generation could have let this happen.

Anyway, sorry for sidetracking the saxophone discussion.

 

[LampLight]

. . . I think it is fair to say that no government is responding with anywhere near the degree of urgency that the looming crisis warrants . . .

I agree. IMO, this is the overwhelmingly important point.

. . . the U.S. and China are near the top of the list of non-responders. I dread the day when my daughter looks me in the eye and asks how our generation could have let this happen.

There's plenty of blame to go around - including Europe - and not much to be gained by pointing fingers IMO. To me, the key issue relates to your observation r.e. lack of urgency: Earth lacks an effective governing body to deal with global climate issues; blaming people doesn't make them act.

As for your daughter: Tell her it was LampLight's fault and that you did everything you could.

. . . Anyway, sorry for sidetracking the saxophone discussion.

I suppose, but there is more to life than the sax.

 

[Phil Barone]

In terms of greenhouse gases, I think it is fair to say that no government is responding with anywhere near the degree of urgency that the looming crisis warrants,

You can say that again.

 

[Augman]

Dont you listen to AM talk radio ? All the scientists are wrong. Global warming is a leftist hoax.

 

[Rackety Sax]

Dont you listen to AM talk radio ? All the scientists are wrong. Global warming is a leftist hoax.

Hey, thanks Augman, that's what I'll tell my daughter when the day comes!