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Discussion Starter #1
I looked at a tenor today that is obviously a Keilwerth or Keilwerth stencil, because it has an identifying JK stamp (i.e., the letters J and K smooshed together) near the serial number along with "made in Germany"; it also has "Dynamic" engraved on the bell, but there's no clear indication of the make or model otherwise. It wasn't playable as is, and I couldn't really guess how much it would take to get it in playable condition, so I passed -- but I might still want to take another run at it if research indicates that it would be worth the trouble.

I looked at the info at http://www.saxpics.com/keilwerth/newking.htm

Given the descriptions there, it appears to be closest to a Tone King series III: there's a Lucite keyguard on the bell, and no microtuner as described.

I don't know if this tiny, little picture will attach properly, but here goes:

View attachment 214522

EDIT: Looking at the following page -- http://www.yoursax.com/en/keilwerth-the-new-king-serie-iii-tenor-sax/ -- shows a very similiar horn.

A lot of the keywork here, the neck, and the stamp, for example, appear very similar, but there was only a small portion of lucite keyguard on the horn I saw, and it didn't say New Tone King on the bell, only "Dynamic".

Anybody have any idea what it might be?
 

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It appears to be a Keilwerth stencil (in as much as the brandname was not one used by Keilwerth but foa all other intents and purposes the same as Keilwerth stamped horn) with sheet metal guards which probably makes it type IV ( on that PDF I see no lucite guard). It may be a Toneking or a New King.

In the years these horns were made they were back then providing stencils to very many brands and shops. So it is entirely possible to find them with any given “ brandname” and sometimes without even a brandname.



If in playing state they can be worth ( depending on the model) quite a bit of cash. So they are generally worth repairing if the price is right and the conditions are not too bad.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
It appears to be a Keilwerth stencil (in as much as the brandname was not one used by Keilwerth but foa all other intents and purposes the same as Keilwerth stamped horn) with sheet metal guards which probably makes it type IV ( on that PDF I see no lucite guard). It may be a Toneking or a New King.

In the years these horns were made they were back then providing stencils to very many brands and shops. So it is entirely possible to find them with any given “ brandname” and sometimes without even a brandname.



If in playing state they can be worth ( depending on the model) quite a bit of cash. So they are generally worth repairing if the price is right and the conditions are not too bad.
Thanks for the reply; it is greatly appreciated.

The only lucite guard was a single one on the very lower left side, protecting the rods operating the lowest keycups -- I suppose it's possible that there was a bit more at one time, and there was some replacement, but I seriously doubt there ever was the "angelwing" I've seen in other pictures.

So you think it's more likely a series IV than a III? Possibly so; what gives me pause about that, however, is that the info at http://www.saxpics.com/keilwerth/newking.htm suggests that the serial numbers for IVs begins at about 45xxx, and I'm pretty sure the number on the one I looked at was a lot lower, probably in the 20xxx range. So I guess my next question would be, do you know if the information for the serial numbers for the brand name Tone Kings, etc., can be reliably used to date the age and era of the stencils, too?

Of course, the other obvious and more important question would be whether it makes that much difference whether it's a III or a IV as far as sound quality or the horn's value? It wasn't playable as is, so I didn't really get to hear the sound quality that I see others here talking about enthusiastically, but you can't judge what a horn should sound like when it's loaded with leaks, either!
 

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The large "angel wing" clear guard would be on the right side. Keilwerth stencils (and Keilwerths) would have a smaller clear guard (about 1" by 5") on the left side.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
The large "angel wing" clear guard would be on the right side. Keilwerth stencils (and Keilwerths) would have a smaller clear guard (about 1" by 5") on the left side.
Yes, that accurately describes the horn I looked at -- only one on the lower left side. Thanks.
 

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The Horn in the pictures has certainly never had an angel wing. That hon is a type IV.

The pants guard on the left side is sometimes made of lucite (even on later types) sometimes made of metal.

Yes , SN charts are to be used also for stencils. Sometimes serial numbers aren’t easily seen but this horn is definitely later.
 

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\

This is your horn, definitely not a III type.
 

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All the Keilwerth stencils that I have had (and are quite a few, Keilwerth is by far the brand I have bought and sold the most) have always followed the Keilwerth serial numbering.

Are you sure that you haven’t read the number wrong? I would appreciate better pictures.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
All the Keilwerth stencils that I have had (and are quite a few, Keilwerth is by far the brand I have bought and sold the most) have always followed the Keilwerth serial numbering.

Are you sure that you haven’t read the number wrong?
I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure that it was in the 21xxx or 22xxx range.

Of course, if I wind up buying it in the next couple of days after all, I'll know then for sure. More and better pictures will be available then if you like. ;)

Thanks again for your input.
 

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I find that SN extremely improbable, unless this was produced by a subsidiary company (Amati or Dörfler & Jörka)
 

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I find that SN extremely improbable, unless this was produced by a subsidiary company (Amati or Dörfler & Jörka)
You're probably right.

So the Amatis and Dörfler & Jörkas would also say "made in Germany", and might also have a "JK" stamp near the serial number, but still not be Keilwerth-made, is that correct?
 

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I don’t think that an Amati made would ( there were examples much later on like the EX or ST series)

D&J was of course German but at some point it was completely integrated.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Thanks again for the information.

My apologizes about the interrogation. I didn't mean for this to turn into . . . . . The Spanish Inquisition!
 

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The clear "angel wing" guard would be on the right side of the horn. Keilwerths and Keilwerth stencils had a smaller clear pants guard on the left side of the horn, around 1" by 5", attached with two screws.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
The clear "angel wing" guard would be on the right side of the horn. Keilwerths and Keilwerth stencils had a smaller clear pants guard on the left side of the horn, around 1" by 5", attached with two screws.
Yes, that accurately describes the horn I was looking at -- thanks!
 

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Discussion Starter #17
After a month, I wound up buying the horn. Only one other person even looked at it during that time.

There's the Keilwerth stamp but no other identifying mark as to model; "Dynamic" is engraved on the bell. Of course, my recollection as to the probable serial number was wrong: it is 42716, which puts it about 1961 or 1962. I don't see any high D# trill key, so I'm guessing it must be a New King stencil.

It needs work, but cosmetically, it's not bad for a horn that's now 56 or so years old.

Pictures follow, if I can figure out how to do this properly . . .

View attachment 216776
View attachment 216778
View attachment 216768
View attachment 216770
View attachment 216772
View attachment 216774

EDIT: In the picture that shows the right hand palm keys you can see that it has the rolled tone holes.
 

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Looks like this is indeed one Keilwerth made at the same time when they were making the angel wings or with left over parts but with sheet metal guards as the series IV (which has straight toneholes).



I buy and sell a fair amount of Keilwerths and they are great players.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Looks like this is indeed one Keilwerth made at the same time when they were making the angel wings or with left over parts but with sheet metal guards as the series IV (which has straight toneholes).

I buy and sell a fair amount of Keilwerths and they are great players.
Thanks to you -- your input was crucial in my decision to pick up the horn. It needs some work, so I haven't actually heard it yet, but I'm looking forward to that soon. It was $250 USD, which seemed like a reasonable bet, so if it costs me that again in repairs I'll be happy -- if it's less, I'll be very happy!
 
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