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well one has to pay attention because ST is a Student model, the EX ( extra?) was better than that and the SX was the top
Well maybe it was the student model then.

So what are the differences in the EX and the SX?
As I recall there were physical differences in the two horns I played.
The lesser horn had different (bouncier) action and did not have the special G# key
 

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So what are the differences in the EX and the SX?
Haven't seen the EX series in a while, but I think the EX II series used to be made from German components, but assembled in another country (Czech Republic ? maybe, can't remember). The EX III series may be made in Asia now. They are not the same horn as the SX.
 

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Well maybe it was the student model then.

So what are the differences in the EX and the SX?
As I recall there were physical differences in the two horns I played.
The lesser horn had different (bouncier) action and did not have the special G# key
I believe the only difference is that the SX and the EX is that the SX has adjustable palm keys and rolled tone holes. Maybe a tech can chime in with any other info.
 

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Only SX90 R has rolled toneholes, the SX doesn't, it has straight ones ( which I actually prefer because should they not be level you can always level them with extreme precision).

The EX series was an intermediate series which featured small differences to cut costs , in time they too, like the ST student series, were also first made by Amati with parts made by Keilwerth and then were completely made by Amati

The SX and SX R were the pro series,

ST was a student line with different keywork, according to their numerals, later, were assembled by Amati and then made by Amati and then also made by KHS-Jupiter ( and were Jupiter though and through).

The price reflected these facts, so be under no false impression, Keilwerth made them or had them made all different they were not " the same", even though they might have differed in visible and invisible details.

(like the way you pull toneholes, braze some of them or not or construct the bell).

This doesn't mean that the ST was a bad horn but it means that the EX and the SX were better made horns but different, exactly like a Yamaha 21 was not like a 61 although they looked pretty similar.

Differences between EX and SX are indeed in small details, mostly keywork, simpler and cheaper in the EX , but might have had constructional elements which were not immediately apparent, exactly like previous lines Toneking and New King differed in small details, although during their long run ( Toneking and New King) sometimes were effectively identical.

Different series of EX ( watch the ordinals) were produced or assembled by Keilwerth or Amati, here is where the ordinals (I, II, III) become important.

The more refined SX series was their premium line.

SX were made for other brands too.

The EX (watch the letters) was probably more similar to the Buffet Expression ( also made by Keilwerth) which had some differences with the SX although it did feature adjustable keyheight ( Buffet requested this probably to impress with a feature than looks better that what it really is or works).

Other than that, yes, it is very confusing but these posts by Saxpiece say it all

Alright. I tracked down photos of all the Keilwerth SX EX and ST different series and compared everything about them such as the body tubes, the keys etc etc.

The conclusion I came to was that something was not quite right about the Amati and Keilwerth connection from what I have read.

The ST-90 Series II and Series III has the same basic tube shape and key shapes and other things as the EX-90 Series II and Series III and the SX-90.

But the ST-90 Series II and Series III and the EX90 series III are supposed to have been made by Amati from what I have read.

Something doesn't add up here but I think I know what happened.

The ST-90 Series II and Series III and the EX90 series III are made from Keilwerth parts manufactured in Germany and then transported to Amati for assembly and finishing.
So Keilwerth gets the assembly and finishing done at a lower price and can then sell them at a lower price.

So over time Keilwerth moved the assembly and finishing for the ST-90 and then the EX-90 to Amati and then finally subcontracted KHS/Jupiter to make the ST-90 Series IV.

The ST-90 Series IV is made by KHS Jupiter in Taiwan ROC.

Saxmaniax.com has this to say:

Model Made in
EX90 Germany
EX90 II Germany
EX90 III Czech Republic
ST 90 I Germany
ST 90 II and III Czech Republic
ST 90 IV Taiwan (Jupiter)

So the list above from Saxmaniax.com is what I also came up with by using photos of the different models and it seems to be pretty accurate except it seems to be this

Model Made in
EX90 Germany
EX90 II Germany
EX90 III Parts made in Germany. Assembly and finishing by Amati in Czech Republic
ST 90 I Germany
ST 90 II and III Parts made in Germany. Assembly and finishing by Amati in Czech Republic
ST 90 IV Taiwan (Jupiter)

All modern Keilwerth sax parts are currently made in Markneukirchen Germany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markneukirchen except for the ST90 series IV which is made by KHS/Jupiter.

All Amati saxes are done at Kraslice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraslice in the Czech Republic.

Kraslice and Markneukirchen are just up the road from each other so to speak.

Originally, the ST90 series I and EX90 series I and II and the SX90 were totally made in Keilwerths Nauheim factory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauheim

For the ST90 series II and III (before the opening of Keilwerths Markneukirchen Germany factory in 2001), Keilwerth shipped the parts from Keilwerths Nauheim factory to Amati at Kraslice for assembly and finishing.

Keilwerths Markneukirchen Germany factory opened in 2001 and for a time it appears that there were some parts coming from both the Keilwerths Nauheim factory and the Keilwerths Markneukirchen factory for the SX-90 and EX-90 series III and the EX-90 series III parts were then shipped to Amati at Kraslice for assembly and finishing.

From 2006, Keilwerths Nauheim factory is mainly just used for administration and Keilwerths Markneukirchen factory produces the SX-90 and the EX-90 series III parts which are shipped to Amati at Kraslice for assembly and finishing.

The ST-90 series II appears around 1992 and the ST-90 series III appears around 1995 and the ST-90 series IV then goes to KHS/Jupiter sometime around the late 90s/early 2000s.

The EX-90 series II appears around 1996? and the EX-90 series III appears around early 2000s.

The ST-90 series II and III and the EX-90 series III are made from Keilwerth parts and assembled and finished by Amati and have Amati serial numbers.

I had my Keilwerth ST90 series III serial number verified for the year of manufacture from Amati and the Amati chart below is pretty accurate.

Here are Amati serial numbers that often start with a 3

The following table is possible to estimate the age of Amati saxophone. Accuracy is approximately 卤 2 years. And that's not so simple for the soprano saxophone is another table with an accuracy of 卤 3.5 years.

alto, tenor, baritone
years serial numbers
1945 - 1959 to 27,200
1960 - 1964 to 55,500
1965 - 1969 to 83,700
1970 - 1974 to 112,000
1975 - 1979 to 140,200
1980 - 1984 to 168,500
1985 - 1989 to 196,700
1990 - 1994 to 326,700
1995 - 1999 to 342,300
2000 - 2004 to 358,000
2005 - 2009 to 374000 (?)
Soprano
years serial numbers
? (1965) - 1979 to 5000
1980 - 1989 in 8300
1990 - 1999 to 11,500
2000 - 2009 to 14,800

Here are Keilwerth serial numbers that often start with a 1

http://www.speakeasy.org/~granlund/keilwerth-serials.html

1978: 79,000

1986: 91,000

1993. 99,100

1998: 109,000
Keilwerth Factory Tour showing a EX-90 series II being made at approx movie time 12:07 at the now defunct Nauheim factory in Germany.
It also shows a saxophone low B key with a distinctive curved lever attachment at the Nauheim factory in Germany at approx movie time 11.06 - 11:16. The low B key with a distinctive curved lever attachment is a feature of the ST-90 series III which comes from around the same years as the EX-90 series II, thereby basically proving that the ST-90 series II and III and EX-90 series III parts were/are made by Keilwerth.







http://www.saxshop.nl/keilwerth.wmv
 

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I believe the only difference is that the SX and the EX is that the SX has adjustable palm keys and rolled tone holes. Maybe a tech can chime in with any other info.
You are confusing the SX90 and SX90R and EX series.
 

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This doesn't mean that the ST was a bad horn but it means that the EX and the SX were better made horns but different, exactly like a Yamaha 21 was not like a 61 although they looked pretty similar.
Never played any ST except the bari, and it was a terrible horn. At least that example was.
 

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Don鈥檛 recognize this serial number or the type are you sure this is not a fake Keilwerth?

It is in fact a better idea to publish pictures as a link to an outside image hosting service ( Fickr, Image shack, photobucket) by publishing them there , copying the link to the picture and pasting the link where, in the go advanced section 鈥 aller in mode avanc茅", there is a 鈥 projection screen鈥 icon.

Don鈥檛 chose the option to 鈥 reference the images locally鈥.
 

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really following my instructions to make the pictures visible here is not difficult.

If you would have done that one would avoid visiting an external site and see it directly. like this...



I am not familiar with this model.

The neck appears to be silver color but is it solid silver?

Strange.

 

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really following my instructions to make the pictures visible here is not difficult.

If you would have done that one would avoid visiting an external site and see it directly. like this...



I am not familiar with this model.

The neck appears to be silver color but is it solid silver?

Strange.

Neck is from keilwerth sx 90r. Sax is equivalent keilwerth ex 90 but i still dont know in which factory was producet.
 

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well if this is equivalent to the EX 90 it is made in Germany (only the EX 90 III was made by Amati) in the Keilwerth factory.

So you have added this neck? It is not the original neck right? Was it lost?



when quoting a message containing pictures you can edit out the pictures so that they are nit repeated in your post, this prevents extremely large posts which might make your comment disappear
 

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Manage to get one of ST90s made in Germany:
Musical instrument Sleeve Gold Wood Jewellery
Window Automotive tire Gold Building Door
Musical instrument Wind instrument Font Wood Gun accessory
Musical instrument Saxophone Gold Wind instrument Brass instrument
Product Tool Artifact Metal Household hardware
Musical instrument Reed instrument Saxophone Light Brass instrument


Few differences I've identified:
1. different F# key (S2 has a pearl one)
2. ST[SUB]90[/SUB] is written in two lines
3. "Modell" is "Model" in German
4. made-of-wire horn-body bridge (same as S2)
6. neck is made of super thick metal
7. no "Made in Germany" stamp, probably because of after-DDR/FRG times
8. mine has 4 digit number starting with 59xx
9. plastic thumb rest, most of the S2s I've seen have the metal ones

Posting here because there are so many people selling S3 as S1, be careful!
 

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really following my instructions to make the pictures visible here is not difficult.

If you would have done that one would avoid visiting an external site and see it directly. like this...



I am not familiar with this model.

The neck appears to be silver color but is it solid silver?

Strange.

This one looks very much like "Edition" model which is pretty rare Taiwan-made student model (a bit above ST90 S3/4). If that's the case it should have "Edition" on the horn and the case, otherwise you can identify it by the serial number starting with "KE00xxx"
 

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Tipos,

Envi茅 el siguiente correo electr贸nico a JK:

Tengo un saxo alto Julius keilwerth ST90 Serial # 050511 ROC pero desconozco su serie (I, II, III o IV). Por favor, 驴podr铆a decirme cu谩l es su serie y d贸nde se hizo (Alemania, etc...)?

Y obtuve esta respuesta:

Gracias por su correo electr贸nico y su inter茅s en nuestros instrumentos. Revis茅 nuestros registros por ti. Los instrumentos St90 con este tipo de n煤meros de serie se fabricaron entre 1973 y 1981. Si tu instrumento es un saxof贸n ST90 data de esta 茅poca y fue de la primera serie (I o II). Me preguntaba sobre el ROC escrito en su trompeta porque en ese momento todos los saxofones ST90 proven铆an de la Rep煤blica Checa y no de China. Por eso no estoy seguro de si se trata de un instrumento de Keilwerth.

Entonces, envi茅 otro correo electr贸nico con dos fotos, una del grabado JK y otra del n煤mero de serie. Estoy esperando la segunda respuesta y la publicar茅 aqu铆 para quienes quieran saber.

Nos vemos
[/CITA]
Hola,
Y obtuviste alguna respuesta.?
Tengo un tenor ST-90, ROC, serials no concuerda
 

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I'll just chime in that back in 1998, I went into my local horn dealer about every week. I played most of the top horns of the day and the Kielwerth had the biggest sound by far. Not at all warm like a Selmer but really big without being too bright like the Yanigasawa. I remember thinking "Why isn't the EX the same"? It looked very similar but it just didn't have the big sound. I don't know why? I was using a metal v16 #9 mouthpiece that could really push a horn. Perhaps somebody with a different setup wouldn't notice.?

INMO The horn is not for everybody. If you want a warm Selmer sound I wouldn't get a Kielwerth.
bobsax
Reposting my comments of over 10 years ago.
Somebody mentioned they thought the differences were minor Between the SX 90R and the other models.
Not all players are going to notice the differences.

If your lifetime quest isn鈥檛 having a huge sound then you may not notice the power of the top of the line Kielwerth and if you鈥檙e not into technical virtuosity you might not notice the superior ergonomics.

fyi I am speaking tenor here but I would think the alto would be the same?
 
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