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· Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru
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Great Info guy, thank you!

I have an alto JK ST90 Serial # 050511 R.O.C

Looking for on table I can see that it was made between 1960 - 1964 but I don´t know about the series ( I, II, III or IV ). How can I check the serie thru serial number, please?

I just want to know if it was made on Germany, Czech Republic or Taiwan.

Thanks,

Machado
The R.O.C. tells you it was made in the Republic of China, I believe.
aka Taiwan ;) :)
 

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That might be true of mouthpieces... but it's the wrong answer to OP's question.

Keilwerth bought instruments, some of the ST series, form KHS - Jupiter from the Rupublic of China also know as Taiwan, never bought anything from England and certainly not from this Gentleman.

Buffet and Vito did that too, in the '80 the Evett also marked with KHS ROC.

See the revealing bell to body brace, identical in the first two and similar in the 3rd.

Keilwert ST 90 ROC



Buffet Evette



Jupiter

 

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The EX is a model which never has had much luck as the SX, the differences are frankly speaking minute but people are prone to repeat things that they have heard and often don’t question these stings.

Athought it can be argued the German manufacturing is superior to the Czech manufacture , to me, All German made or assembled Keilwerth were always great performers. The Amati made have bad press which is sometimes deserved and sometimes is not.

There is a great significance in those ordinals after the model name though.

A separate issue are the KHS made Keilwerth.

The ROC made saxophones ( nothing to do with the the mouthpieces and straps brand made in the UK) were not made with Keiwerthg parts, they are just KHS, Jupiter, Horns. That was a simple case of selling a cheap student saxophones.

KHS is, after Yamaha one of the largest companies in the entire world of music, a true giant.
 

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Only SX90 R has rolled toneholes, the SX doesn't, it has straight ones ( which I actually prefer because should they not be level you can always level them with extreme precision).

The EX series was an intermediate series which featured small differences to cut costs , in time they too, like the ST student series, were also first made by Amati with parts made by Keilwerth and then were completely made by Amati

The SX and SX R were the pro series,

ST was a student line with different keywork, according to their numerals, later, were assembled by Amati and then made by Amati and then also made by KHS-Jupiter ( and were Jupiter though and through).

The price reflected these facts, so be under no false impression, Keilwerth made them or had them made all different they were not " the same", even though they might have differed in visible and invisible details.

(like the way you pull toneholes, braze some of them or not or construct the bell).

This doesn't mean that the ST was a bad horn but it means that the EX and the SX were better made horns but different, exactly like a Yamaha 21 was not like a 61 although they looked pretty similar.

Differences between EX and SX are indeed in small details, mostly keywork, simpler and cheaper in the EX , but might have had constructional elements which were not immediately apparent, exactly like previous lines Toneking and New King differed in small details, although during their long run ( Toneking and New King) sometimes were effectively identical.

Different series of EX ( watch the ordinals) were produced or assembled by Keilwerth or Amati, here is where the ordinals (I, II, III) become important.

The more refined SX series was their premium line.

SX were made for other brands too.

The EX (watch the letters) was probably more similar to the Buffet Expression ( also made by Keilwerth) which had some differences with the SX although it did feature adjustable keyheight ( Buffet requested this probably to impress with a feature than looks better that what it really is or works).

Other than that, yes, it is very confusing but these posts by Saxpiece say it all

Alright. I tracked down photos of all the Keilwerth SX EX and ST different series and compared everything about them such as the body tubes, the keys etc etc.

The conclusion I came to was that something was not quite right about the Amati and Keilwerth connection from what I have read.

The ST-90 Series II and Series III has the same basic tube shape and key shapes and other things as the EX-90 Series II and Series III and the SX-90.

But the ST-90 Series II and Series III and the EX90 series III are supposed to have been made by Amati from what I have read.

Something doesn't add up here but I think I know what happened.

The ST-90 Series II and Series III and the EX90 series III are made from Keilwerth parts manufactured in Germany and then transported to Amati for assembly and finishing.
So Keilwerth gets the assembly and finishing done at a lower price and can then sell them at a lower price.

So over time Keilwerth moved the assembly and finishing for the ST-90 and then the EX-90 to Amati and then finally subcontracted KHS/Jupiter to make the ST-90 Series IV.

The ST-90 Series IV is made by KHS Jupiter in Taiwan ROC.

Saxmaniax.com has this to say:

Model Made in
EX90 Germany
EX90 II Germany
EX90 III Czech Republic
ST 90 I Germany
ST 90 II and III Czech Republic
ST 90 IV Taiwan (Jupiter)

So the list above from Saxmaniax.com is what I also came up with by using photos of the different models and it seems to be pretty accurate except it seems to be this

Model Made in
EX90 Germany
EX90 II Germany
EX90 III Parts made in Germany. Assembly and finishing by Amati in Czech Republic
ST 90 I Germany
ST 90 II and III Parts made in Germany. Assembly and finishing by Amati in Czech Republic
ST 90 IV Taiwan (Jupiter)

All modern Keilwerth sax parts are currently made in Markneukirchen Germany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markneukirchen except for the ST90 series IV which is made by KHS/Jupiter.

All Amati saxes are done at Kraslice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraslice in the Czech Republic.

Kraslice and Markneukirchen are just up the road from each other so to speak.

Originally, the ST90 series I and EX90 series I and II and the SX90 were totally made in Keilwerths Nauheim factory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauheim

For the ST90 series II and III (before the opening of Keilwerths Markneukirchen Germany factory in 2001), Keilwerth shipped the parts from Keilwerths Nauheim factory to Amati at Kraslice for assembly and finishing.

Keilwerths Markneukirchen Germany factory opened in 2001 and for a time it appears that there were some parts coming from both the Keilwerths Nauheim factory and the Keilwerths Markneukirchen factory for the SX-90 and EX-90 series III and the EX-90 series III parts were then shipped to Amati at Kraslice for assembly and finishing.

From 2006, Keilwerths Nauheim factory is mainly just used for administration and Keilwerths Markneukirchen factory produces the SX-90 and the EX-90 series III parts which are shipped to Amati at Kraslice for assembly and finishing.

The ST-90 series II appears around 1992 and the ST-90 series III appears around 1995 and the ST-90 series IV then goes to KHS/Jupiter sometime around the late 90s/early 2000s.

The EX-90 series II appears around 1996? and the EX-90 series III appears around early 2000s.

The ST-90 series II and III and the EX-90 series III are made from Keilwerth parts and assembled and finished by Amati and have Amati serial numbers.

I had my Keilwerth ST90 series III serial number verified for the year of manufacture from Amati and the Amati chart below is pretty accurate.

Here are Amati serial numbers that often start with a 3

The following table is possible to estimate the age of Amati saxophone. Accuracy is approximately ± 2 years. And that's not so simple for the soprano saxophone is another table with an accuracy of ± 3.5 years.

alto, tenor, baritone
years serial numbers
1945 - 1959 to 27,200
1960 - 1964 to 55,500
1965 - 1969 to 83,700
1970 - 1974 to 112,000
1975 - 1979 to 140,200
1980 - 1984 to 168,500
1985 - 1989 to 196,700
1990 - 1994 to 326,700
1995 - 1999 to 342,300
2000 - 2004 to 358,000
2005 - 2009 to 374000 (?)
Soprano
years serial numbers
? (1965) - 1979 to 5000
1980 - 1989 in 8300
1990 - 1999 to 11,500
2000 - 2009 to 14,800

Here are Keilwerth serial numbers that often start with a 1

http://www.speakeasy.org/~granlund/keilwerth-serials.html

1978: 79,000

1986: 91,000

1993. 99,100

1998: 109,000
Keilwerth Factory Tour showing a EX-90 series II being made at approx movie time 12:07 at the now defunct Nauheim factory in Germany.
It also shows a saxophone low B key with a distinctive curved lever attachment at the Nauheim factory in Germany at approx movie time 11.06 - 11:16. The low B key with a distinctive curved lever attachment is a feature of the ST-90 series III which comes from around the same years as the EX-90 series II, thereby basically proving that the ST-90 series II and III and EX-90 series III parts were/are made by Keilwerth.







http://www.saxshop.nl/keilwerth.wmv
 

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Don’t recognize this serial number or the type are you sure this is not a fake Keilwerth?

It is in fact a better idea to publish pictures as a link to an outside image hosting service ( Fickr, Image shack, photobucket) by publishing them there , copying the link to the picture and pasting the link where, in the go advanced section “ aller in mode avancé", there is a “ projection screen” icon.

Don’t chose the option to “ reference the images locally”.
 

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really following my instructions to make the pictures visible here is not difficult.

If you would have done that one would avoid visiting an external site and see it directly. like this...



I am not familiar with this model.

The neck appears to be silver color but is it solid silver?

Strange.

 

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well if this is equivalent to the EX 90 it is made in Germany (only the EX 90 III was made by Amati) in the Keilwerth factory.

So you have added this neck? It is not the original neck right? Was it lost?



when quoting a message containing pictures you can edit out the pictures so that they are nit repeated in your post, this prevents extremely large posts which might make your comment disappear
 

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Hello, and welcome, you have posted using a browser (Chrome) which changes automatically everything you post and read in the language ( Spanish) which you have in the setting , unless you add English to your setting you will never post here in English which is the officia language of the forum (even if you write in English because the browser will automatically translate).

Another thing is, when you answer and quote a post, if you add your comment within the quote your message will become part of the quote and disappear completely.

If you Saxophone is a ST90 R.O.C it means it was made in Taiwan by Jupiter- KHS ROC means Republic of China which is the official name of Taiwan ( as opposed to People’s Republic of China which is the official name of China) , this will make it a ST IV , good saxophone but worth very little
 
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