[saxpiece]

Alright. I tracked down photos of all the Keilwerth SX EX and ST different series and compared everything about them such as the body tubes, the keys etc etc.

The conclusion I came to was that something was not quite right about the Amati and Keilwerth connection from what I have read.

The ST-90 Series II and Series III has the same basic tube shape and key shapes and other things as the EX-90 Series II and Series III and the SX-90.

But the ST-90 Series II and Series III and the EX90 series III are supposed to have been made by Amati from what I have read.

Something doesn't add up here but I think I know what happened.

The ST-90 Series II and Series III and the EX90 series III are made from Keilwerth parts manufactured in Germany and then transported to Amati for assembly and finishing.
So Keilwerth gets the assembly and finishing done at a lower price and can then sell them at a lower price.

So over time Keilwerth moved the assembly and finishing for the ST-90 and then the EX-90 to Amati and then finally subcontracted KHS/Jupiter to make the ST-90 Series IV.

The ST-90 Series IV is made by KHS Jupiter in Taiwan ROC.

Saxmaniax.com has this to say:

Model Made in
EX90 Germany
EX90 II Germany
EX90 III Czech Republic
ST 90 I Germany
ST 90 II and III Czech Republic
ST 90 IV Taiwan (Jupiter)

So the list above from Saxmaniax.com is what I also came up with by using photos of the different models and it seems to be pretty accurate except it seems to be this

Model Made in
EX90 Germany
EX90 II Germany
EX90 III Parts made in Germany. Assembly and finishing by Amati in Czech Republic
ST 90 I Germany
ST 90 II and III Parts made in Germany. Assembly and finishing by Amati in Czech Republic
ST 90 IV Taiwan (Jupiter)

All modern Keilwerth sax parts are currently made in Markneukirchen Germany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markneukirchen except for the ST90 series IV which is made by KHS/Jupiter.

All Amati saxes are done at Kraslice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraslice in the Czech Republic.

Kraslice and Markneukirchen are just up the road from each other so to speak.

Originally, the ST90 series I and EX90 series I and II and the SX90 were totally made in Keilwerths Nauheim factory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauheim

For the ST90 series II and III (before the opening of Keilwerths Markneukirchen Germany factory in 2001), Keilwerth shipped the parts from Keilwerths Nauheim factory to Amati at Kraslice for assembly and finishing.

Keilwerths Markneukirchen Germany factory opened in 2001 and for a time it appears that there were some parts coming from both the Keilwerths Nauheim factory and the Keilwerths Markneukirchen factory for the SX-90 and EX-90 series III and the EX-90 series III parts were then shipped to Amati at Kraslice for assembly and finishing.

From 2006, Keilwerths Nauheim factory is mainly just used for administration and Keilwerths Markneukirchen factory produces the SX-90 and the EX-90 series III parts which are shipped to Amati at Kraslice for assembly and finishing.

The ST-90 series II appears around 1992 and the ST-90 series III appears around 1995 and the ST-90 series IV then goes to KHS/Jupiter sometime around the late 90s/early 2000s.

The EX-90 series II appears around 1996? and the EX-90 series III appears around early 2000s.

The ST-90 series II and III and the EX-90 series III are made from Keilwerth parts and assembled and finished by Amati and have Amati serial numbers.

I had my Keilwerth ST90 series III serial number verified for the year of manufacture from Amati and the Amati chart below is pretty accurate.

Here are Amati serial numbers that often start with a 3

The following table is possible to estimate the age of Amati saxophone. Accuracy is approximately ± 2 years. And that's not so simple for the soprano saxophone is another table with an accuracy of ± 3.5 years.

alto, tenor, baritone
years serial numbers
1945 - 1959 to 27,200
1960 - 1964 to 55,500
1965 - 1969 to 83,700
1970 - 1974 to 112,000
1975 - 1979 to 140,200
1980 - 1984 to 168,500
1985 - 1989 to 196,700
1990 - 1994 to 326,700
1995 - 1999 to 342,300
2000 - 2004 to 358,000
2005 - 2009 to 374000 (?)
Soprano
years serial numbers
? (1965) - 1979 to 5000
1980 - 1989 in 8300
1990 - 1999 to 11,500
2000 - 2009 to 14,800

Here are Keilwerth serial numbers that often start with a 1

http://www.speakeasy.org/~granlund/keilwerth-serials.html

1978: 79,000

1986: 91,000

1993. 99,100

1998: 109,000

 

[saxpiece]

Keilwerth Factory Tour showing a EX-90 series II being made at approx movie time 12:07 at the now defunct Nauheim factory in Germany.
It also shows a saxophone low B key with a distinctive curved lever attachment at the Nauheim factory in Germany at approx movie time 11.06 - 11:16. The low B key with a distinctive curved lever attachment is a feature of the ST-90 series III which comes from around the same years as the EX-90 series II, thereby basically proving that the ST-90 series II and III and EX-90 series III parts were/are made by Keilwerth.

http://www.saxshop.nl/keilwerth.wmv

 

[gary]

Interesting info. Thanks!

 

[Berko]

great info dude
thanks a lot

 

[al9672]

Interesting.

Thank you!

 

[machado]

Great Info guy, thank you!

I have an alto JK ST90 Serial # 050511 R.O.C

Looking for on table I can see that it was made between 1960 - 1964 but I don´t know about the series ( I, II, III or IV ). How can I check the serie thru serial number, please?

I just want to know if it was made on Germany, Czech Republic or Taiwan.

Thanks,

Machado

 

[Morry]

Great Info guy, thank you!

I have an alto JK ST90 Serial # 050511 R.O.C

Looking for on table I can see that it was made between 1960 - 1964 but I don´t know about the series ( I, II, III or IV ). How can I check the serie thru serial number, please?

I just want to know if it was made on Germany, Czech Republic or Taiwan.

Thanks,

Machado

The R.O.C. tells you it was made in the Republic of China, I believe.

 

[milandro]

Great Info guy, thank you!

I have an alto JK ST90 Serial # 050511 R.O.C

Looking for on table I can see that it was made between 1960 - 1964 but I don´t know about the series ( I, II, III or IV ). How can I check the serie thru serial number, please?

I just want to know if it was made on Germany, Czech Republic or Taiwan.

Thanks,

Machado

The R.O.C. tells you it was made in the Republic of China, I believe.

aka Taiwan

 

[shmuelyosef]

Hard to believe that they were assembling saxophones in Taiwan from German parts in 1964...

 

[BOPITY FUNK]

Hard to believe that they were assembling saxophones in Taiwan from German parts in 1964...

THats what I thought too---gets curiouser and curiouser!

 

[saxpiece]

Great Info guy, thank you!

I have an alto JK ST90 Serial # 050511 R.O.C

Looking for on table I can see that it was made between 1960 - 1964 but I don´t know about the series ( I, II, III or IV ). How can I check the serie thru serial number, please?

I just want to know if it was made on Germany, Czech Republic or Taiwan.

Thanks,

Machado

The serials above are for European Keilwerths only.

The ROC Keilwerths are made by KHS/Jupiter in Taiwan and follow another serial number list.

 

[machado]

I sent an email to Keilwerth asking about serial number list and "Made in".
As soon as they answer I will post here, if they answer me !

 

[machado]

I sent an email to Keilwerth asking about serial number list and "Made in".
As soon as they answer I will post here, if they answer me !

Guys,

I sent the following email to JK:

I have an alto sax Julius keilwerth ST90 Serial # 050511 R.O.C but I don´t know about its series ( I, II, III or IV ). Please, could you tell me what is its serie and where it was made (Germany, etc...)?

And I got this answer:

Thank you for your e-mail and your interest in our instruments. I checked our records for you. The St90 instruments with this kind of serial numbers were manufactured from 1973-1981. If your instrument is an ST90 saxophone it dates from this time and was one of the first series (I or II). I was wondering about the R.O.C. written on your horn because in this time all the ST90 saxophones came from Czech republic and not from China. That's why I am not sure if this is a Keilwerth instrument.

So, I sent another email with two pictures, one from JK engraving and another from serial number. I am waiting for second answer and I will post here for who want to know.

See you

 

[saxpiece]

Looks like Keilwerth don't have any KHS/Jupiter serial number lists to me.
The reply you got is all over the place.
Even though the ROC Keilwerths seem to be made by KHS/Jupiter (Keilwerths are mentioned in a KHS/Jupiter factory tour) they don't have Jupiter serial numbers and have another serial number format so the Jupiter serial number chart can't be used for the ROC Keilwerths.
I don't think ST90's started being made until the mid/late 1980s and the ROC ST90's are Series IV and start around the late 1990s as far as I can work out.
ST90's Series I and II and III parts were made in Germany and the Series II and III were assembled and finished by Amati in the Czech Republic.

 

[Soulman63]

One answer here:

The ROC Instrument Co. in Birmingham

ROC = Stands for Rudall O. Cocker (not Republic of China). ROC is known also for their mouthpieces.

 

[milandro]

That might be true of mouthpieces... but it's the wrong answer to OP's question.

Keilwerth bought instruments, some of the ST series, form KHS - Jupiter from the Rupublic of China also know as Taiwan, never bought anything from England and certainly not from this Gentleman.

Buffet and Vito did that too, in the '80 the Evett also marked with KHS ROC.

See the revealing bell to body brace, identical in the first two and similar in the 3rd.

Keilwert ST 90 ROC

Buffet Evette

Jupiter

 

[tenored]

Hi Milandro

Given the physical
similarities between the EX and SX models I'd welcome your view as to why the SX is considered to be so superior to the EX. Are they very different in terms of tone and quality. I've never played an SX. I have an EX III from 2003 approx that I was very happy with until I stumbled on a New King from 1957 and had it overhauled.

Apologies if the question is off topic.

 

[bobsax]

Hi Milandro

Given the physical
similarities between the EX and SX models I'd welcome your view as to why the SX is considered to be so superior to the EX. Are they very different in terms of tone and quality. I've never played an SX. I have an EX III from 2003 approx that I was very happy with until I stumbled on a New King from 1957 and had it overhauled.

Apologies if the question is off topic.

I'll just chime in that back in 1998, I went into my local horn dealer about every week. I played most of the top horns of the day and the Kielwerth had the biggest sound by far. Not at all warm like a Selmer but really big without being too bright like the Yanigasawa. I remember thinking "Why isn't the EX the same"? It looked very similar but it just didn't have the big sound. I don't know why? I was using a metal v16 #9 mouthpiece that could really push a horn. Perhaps somebody with a different setup wouldn't notice.?

INMO The horn is not for everybody. If you want a warm Selmer sound I wouldn't get a Kielwerth.
bobsax

 

[milandro]

The EX is a model which never has had much luck as the SX, the differences are frankly speaking minute but people are prone to repeat things that they have heard and often don’t question these stings.

Athought it can be argued the German manufacturing is superior to the Czech manufacture , to me, All German made or assembled Keilwerth were always great performers. The Amati made have bad press which is sometimes deserved and sometimes is not.

There is a great significance in those ordinals after the model name though.

A separate issue are the KHS made Keilwerth.

The ROC made saxophones ( nothing to do with the the mouthpieces and straps brand made in the UK) were not made with Keiwerthg parts, they are just KHS, Jupiter, Horns. That was a simple case of selling a cheap student saxophones.

KHS is, after Yamaha one of the largest companies in the entire world of music, a true giant.

 

[bobsax]

The EX is a model which never has had much luck as the SX, the differences are frankly speaking minute but people are prone to repeat things that they have heard and often don't question these stings.

Athought it can be argued the German manufacturing is superior to the Czech manufacture , to me, All German made or assembled Keilwerth were always great performers. The Amati made have bad press which is sometimes deserved and sometimes is not.

There is a great significance in those ordinals after the model name though.

A separate issue are the KHS made Keilwerth.

The ROC made saxophones ( nothing to do with the the mouthpieces and straps brand made in the UK) were not made with Keiwerthg parts, they are just KHS, Jupiter, Horns. That was a simple case of selling a cheap student saxophones.

KHS is, after Yamaha one of the largest companies in the entire world of music, a true giant.

Hmm
well all I can say is there was a huge difference in 1998 between the pro Kielwerth and the next one down. I don't really pay attention to SX or EX ,ST whatever.

Like I said if your playing style does not or didn't depend on volume and a big/loud sound , you might not notice the difference .
PS this is just for the tenor